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Post by lousingh on Jun 14, 2018 14:08:15 GMT
I still maintain that Embassies and other diplomatic offices of the British government would be good places to check. When I joined the Central office of Information in 1983, one of my first jobs was checking and cleaning 16mm prints returned from British embassies and high commissions. The COI, I'm guessing in conjunction with the FCO, used to purchase copies of British films (or films with a strong British element) to send out around the world. When they came back we'd check them before they were sent out again. Some of the titles we had were Gregory's Girl, A Passage to India, Local hero, Ghandi, Never Say Never Again, Escape to Victory, and A Room with a View. I think we even had a copy of Star Wars. If any TV programmes were sent out they never went through COI and we never had any odd prints finding their way back to us. Not saying it couldn't have happened but that's my experience. Thank you very much, Robbie. That was very enlightening. And I very much appreciate your input. I should ask the people from whom I got my information about embassies about how this differs from their experience. I infer that it sounds like American media companies have an extra bit of "oomph" that goes back to WWII for how films are handled. This is great - I wonder if that might trigger some ideas on how to hunt down the stuff that may still exist but is hard to find. Again, thank you very much.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 14, 2018 14:09:56 GMT
I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have. I can confirm your memory of the "Doctor Clown" jibe, I've probably got the zine in question stashed in my shed. Thank you very much, Sue. I am so glad you confirmed this bit. I started searching my papers from back then last night, but my allergies got the better of me.
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Post by steveb on Jun 14, 2018 19:19:45 GMT
I have certainly heard that story about a clip from POTD being shown late at night at a US Con. i was around as a fan in the 80s. Honestly, I didnt believe it then (and I dont think anyone I knew did either) and I dont believe it now. Want to emphasise, not callbg anyone a liar, just mistaken.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 14, 2018 19:54:41 GMT
I have certainly heard that story about a clip from POTD being shown late at night at a US Con. i was around as a fan in the 80s. Honestly, I didnt believe it then (and I dont think anyone I knew did either) and I dont believe it now. Want to emphasise, not callbg anyone a liar, just mistaken. In the UK DWAS started in the mid/late 70s. Is the history of early fandom/conventions in the US established? Prints of Power were returned from Australia in 1975 - the batch that seems to have “leaked”. We don’t know exactly how many prints were saved but there’s nothing to prevent an episode of Power being amongst them. Airlock and UM2 probably went through several owners before their recovery but was there a route for 16mm prints from the UK to the US or vice versa? Was anybody on this MB involved in 16mm collecting in the 80s?
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Post by lousingh on Jun 14, 2018 20:11:49 GMT
I have certainly heard that story about a clip from POTD being shown late at night at a US Con. i was around as a fan in the 80s. Honestly, I didnt believe it then (and I dont think anyone I knew did either) and I dont believe it now. Want to emphasise, not callbg anyone a liar, just mistaken. Actually, the person who advertises this is I. I saw it. You don't have to believe me if you choose not to -- that's what freedom is all about.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 14, 2018 20:23:33 GMT
I have certainly heard that story about a clip from POTD being shown late at night at a US Con. i was around as a fan in the 80s. Honestly, I didnt believe it then (and I dont think anyone I knew did either) and I dont believe it now. Want to emphasise, not callbg anyone a liar, just mistaken. Actually, the person who advertises this is I. I saw it. You don't have to believe me if you choose not to -- that's what freedom is all about. Let’s not get into a slanging match, let's treat this like Macra Terror in NZ. I asked a few questions immediately above, how far can this be taken?.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 14, 2018 20:46:32 GMT
Actually, the person who advertises this is I. I saw it. You don't have to believe me if you choose not to -- that's what freedom is all about. Let’s not get into a slanging match, let's treat this like Macra Terror in NZ. I asked a few questions immediately above, how far can this be taken?. I didn't mean it as a slinging match. I just wanted to 'fess up to my role. Honestly, if it weren't that I am the person who saw this, I would be pretty skeptical as well. I also really do mean that people are free to believe. It's a bit like one of my friends who said that he's the basis of "Whizzkid" from "The Greatest Show in the Galaxy" - he knows better than I do. I doubt it, although I don't doubt that someone told him he's the basis for the character and that *he* thinks it is correct. On your point, I was wondering if it were possible to backtrack the NZ prints to who had access to them when they might have vanished from the expected possessors. How would we get to the records.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jun 14, 2018 20:46:40 GMT
I attended what was probably the first Dr. Who convention in the United States. It was December 3, 1979 at the Continental Hyatt House on Sunset Blvd in Los Angeles. Guests included Terrance Dicks, Graham Williams and Tom Baker. I got my first autographed book Dr. Who and the Face of Evil (second edition) that day. . . . and the rest is history
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 14, 2018 21:12:44 GMT
I wasn't aware that there was ever an Australian branch of the DWAS. Australia had its own fan club. That aside, what make you conclude that this was any different to a lot of the other blatantly untrue fan boasting that used to go on back in the 1980s? I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. I must admit, I'm getting very confused by what you're trying to say here. I'm not sure why you're being so coy about the names in this. I think that it's pretty clear that you're initially talking about Antony Howe, who ran the Doctor Who Fan Club of Australia and very publicly left both the club and announced that he would cease publication of Zerinza in his editorial in Issue 32 back in 1985. So, is this "very public forum" you keep referring to the letters page of Zerinza, which didn't cease until issue 35? I can't think where else it would be. The internet wasn't around then, so I can only assume that you're referring to a letters page. That said, you talk about how "the people in question" rebuked Howe, but then you go on to say that "One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor". How can it plural one minute and singular the next? You seem to place a lot of weight on this idea that because he said that he had seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" it, therefore, has to mean by implication that he has access to The Power of the Daleks, but that does rather sound like you're jumping to conclusions to me. Why are you so certain that "none had been abroad before this public forum". Why couldn't the person who said this (not the group) simply have lived in England, Australia or one of the other countries that had shown the story originally? Your second point, I can't quite grasp the meaning of. Are you saying here that Mister X has supposedly shown this mysterious clip at a convention? Why do you say that "there is no question of this"? If you weren't there when it happened, how can you be that certain? But you could say that about any of the myriads of people over the years who have pretended to have what they did not. The internet has been littered with examples over the years, including the large number that has come the BBC and Restoration Team's way over the years that they've never made public. People simply do it for attention and the delight when they sucker others into beliving their tall tales.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 14, 2018 21:13:12 GMT
In a very public forum, the people in question rebuked the head of the Australian branch of DWAS for his letter of resignation that began, and I quote, "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" and his general criticism of "The Twin Dilemma." One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor and believe 'The Twin Dilemma' is the strongest of them all." To put this into context, the "DR CLOWN" criticism was published in issue 32 of the Australian DW Fan Club zine Zerinza in early 1985. It was later reported in the UK zine DWB issue 23 (cover dated June 1985). The "very public forum" you speak of in which "the people in question rebuked" the "DR CLOWN" criticism does not appear to be in the pages of DWB, so it's difficult to check exactly what was said. (ETA: As I was typing this I didn't see that Richard had meanwhile posted the above!)
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Post by John Wall on Jun 14, 2018 22:02:30 GMT
Let’s not get into a slanging match, let's treat this like Macra Terror in NZ. I asked a few questions immediately above, how far can this be taken?. I didn't mean it as a slinging match. I just wanted to 'fess up to my role. Honestly, if it weren't that I am the person who saw this, I would be pretty skeptical as well. I also really do mean that people are free to believe. It's a bit like one of my friends who said that he's the basis of "Whizzkid" from "The Greatest Show in the Galaxy" - he knows better than I do. I doubt it, although I don't doubt that someone told him he's the basis for the character and that *he* thinks it is correct. On your point, I was wondering if it were possible to backtrack the NZ prints to who had access to them when they might have vanished from the expected possessors. How would we get to the records. The thing to do is to try and determine exactly when the event in question occurred. We don’t know whether, or not, Macra was shown in NZ but, at a distance of almost 45 years, we have an exact date and location. Can we identify the date/location when the clip from Power was, allegedly, shown?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 22:14:35 GMT
I need to be a bit careful about this because of my certainty that there can be a recovery of TPOTD. It's the only reason I have been so coy about this over the years. In a very public forum, the people in question rebuked the head of the Australian branch of DWAS for his letter of resignation that began, and I quote, "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" and his general criticism of "The Twin Dilemma." One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor and believe 'The Twin Dilemma' is the strongest of them all." Let us not debate the accuracy of this statement. (I still rank "The Twin Dilemma" as the worst story of the original Doctor Who.) The key is that this group of people incontrovertibly claimed to have seen "The Power of the Daleks". All of them are Americans. None had been abroad before this public forum. And these people had a copy of a clip that was not and is not in the BBC archives. I refuse to believe this is an accident. People with access to more information than even I had back then are even more sure that they have the entirety of TPOTD than I am -- I have a smidgen of doubt, but they are certain. My problem with them is not that they held on to it. (Sure I resent it a bit, but as a collector, I get it.) My beef is that they are rank hypocrites -- In another public forum, another one of the group said that if you find a missing clip or episode to return it to the BBC, no questions asked, and don't ask for remuneration aside from the gratefulness of fans. To this day, I don't know how I managed not to betray my extra knowledge. There seems to be one too many 'I's in this story, Lou, when it's supposed to be about a group across the pond who have nothing to do with you. Why are you throwing yourself with great weight into this account? I'm sorry, but as with a lot of these after-the-apparent-fact-from-a-bygone-age-tales the teller always gets a kick out of to putting themselves heavily into it. It's like it's a 'power' (if you'll excuse the pun) thing of waving exclusive information under the noses of everyone who badly wants to see these missing stories. Typical scenario: I heard this story, I met these people, I know someone who has x-clip/episode. What the fook has I got to do with it, when it's about them?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 22:16:15 GMT
I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. I must admit, I'm getting very confused by what you're trying to say here. I'm not sure why you're being so coy about the names in this. I think that it's pretty clear that you're initially talking about Antony Howe, who ran the Doctor Who Fan Club of Australia and very publicly left both the club and announced that he would cease publication of Zerinza in his editorial in Issue 32 back in 1985. So, is this "very public forum" you keep referring to the letters page of Zerinza, which didn't cease until issue 35? I can't think where else it would be. The internet wasn't around then, so I can only assume that you're referring to a letters page. That said, you talk about how "the people in question" rebuked Howe, but then you go on to say that "One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor". How can it plural one minute and singular the next? You seem to place a lot of weight on this idea that because he said that he had seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" it, therefore, has to mean by implication that he has access to The Power of the Daleks, but that does rather sound like you're jumping to conclusions to me. Why are you so certain that "none had been abroad before this public forum". Why couldn't the person who said this (not the group) simply have lived in England, Australia or one of the other countries that had shown the story originally? Your second point, I can't quite grasp the meaning of. Are you saying here that Mister X has supposedly shown this mysterious clip at a convention? Why do you say that "there is no question of this"? If you weren't there when it happened, how can you be that certain? But you could say that about any of the myriads of people over the years who have pretended to have what they did not. The internet has been littered with examples over the years, including the large number that has come the BBC and Restoration Team's way over the years that they've never made public. People simply do it for attention and the delight when they sucker others into beliving their tall tales. Amen.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 14, 2018 22:18:10 GMT
First, thanks for the information. I had long since forgotten who wrote the original resignation letter and where it came from. And I remembered a few more details around this incident.
Let me be clear:
The people who, at the very least, have the opening few minutes of TPOTD E1 are American. At least one of them is dead, but I would not want to reveal his name because everyone here could guess who the other people are. (I searched his name with "doctor who" in three search engines and his buddies came up in the first hit each time.) IMHO, these people would destroy the original(s) without a second thought if they were pressured. I don't like that attitude, but I get it.
These people revealed that they had this in a public, written forum. (No, not rec.arts.drwho.) In that forum, they began with a brief description of Antony Howe. They then quoted Antony Howe's resignation letter in Zerinza. They followed it up with something like, "Lighten up, Antony!" followed shortly by, "I have seen first stories of all the Doctors and think that Twin Dilemma is the strongest of them all." How I and about 10 other people got to see the clip is earlier in this thread.
When I saw the clip, I didn't know what out of TPOTD was missing. I had seen "Daleks conquer and destroy" by then; thus, when I saw this clip, I figured it was another clip that BBC kept out of posterity (like the regeneration). It was a couple of years later that I found out that said clip didn't exist in the BBC archives. I think my friends in Buffalo only believed me because my character is that unimpeachable. And one of them left the same con that day about an hour before I did. Neither he nor I know who the other attendees were who saw it. (We have tried.)
I also want to be clear: I want these clips back with the BBC very, very badly. I have a collection of Beatles valuables with pieces worth upwards of $25,000 available. I would trade one of these prizes to get a missing episode back to give to the BBC. The clips themselves would be worth one of my rare, but not prized, collectibles. I would lose money on the transaction, but the clips mean that much to me. When I took ultra-powerful drugs after surgery, I got nightmares of these people destroying their clips in front of my eyes. I never want them again.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 14, 2018 22:21:24 GMT
I need to be a bit careful about this because of my certainty that there can be a recovery of TPOTD. It's the only reason I have been so coy about this over the years. In a very public forum, the people in question rebuked the head of the Australian branch of DWAS for his letter of resignation that began, and I quote, "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" and his general criticism of "The Twin Dilemma." One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor and believe 'The Twin Dilemma' is the strongest of them all." Let us not debate the accuracy of this statement. (I still rank "The Twin Dilemma" as the worst story of the original Doctor Who.) The key is that this group of people incontrovertibly claimed to have seen "The Power of the Daleks". All of them are Americans. None had been abroad before this public forum. And these people had a copy of a clip that was not and is not in the BBC archives. I refuse to believe this is an accident. People with access to more information than even I had back then are even more sure that they have the entirety of TPOTD than I am -- I have a smidgen of doubt, but they are certain. My problem with them is not that they held on to it. (Sure I resent it a bit, but as a collector, I get it.) My beef is that they are rank hypocrites -- In another public forum, another one of the group said that if you find a missing clip or episode to return it to the BBC, no questions asked, and don't ask for remuneration aside from the gratefulness of fans. To this day, I don't know how I managed not to betray my extra knowledge. There seems to be one too many 'I's in this story, Lou, when it's supposed to be about a group across the pond who have nothing to do with you. Why are you throwing yourself with great weight into this account? I'm sorry, but as with a lot of these after-the-apparent-fact-from-a-bygone-age-tales the teller always gets a kick out of to putting themselves heavily into it. It's like it's a 'power' (if you'll excuse the pun) thing of waving exclusive information under the noses of everyone who badly wants to see these missing stories. Typical scenario: I heard this story, I met these people, I know someone who has x-clip/episode. What the fook has I got to do with it, when it's about them? A significant effort went into investigating Macra in NZ. Put a bit of effort into investigating a clip of Power being shown at a convention in the US in the 80s and see if anything transpires.
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