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Post by John Wall on Jun 13, 2018 13:48:35 GMT
Let's suppose we "exhaust all the available paths" for the missing episodes. Stuff still gets into weird places. One of my Dad's friends found that his late grandfather had a highlight reel of the 1936 Olympic Field Hockey Final -- that he never knew his family had and was thought to have been destroyed during Partition (1947) -- sometime during The Great Recession. It's now on YouTube. It's not in great shape but it's far better than nothing. I still maintain that Embassies and other diplomatic offices of the British government would be good places to check. AFAIK, no one has checked them, as time-consuming as it would undoubtedly be to check. I know a few people who quit the diplomatic corps since 20 January 2017 who told me that stuff like missing episodes would land at the Embassy or some other outpost -- including favourite restaurants, bars, etc. I have always believed that some of the rumours about what is in private hands were true. Although no one here believes it, I KNOW that the opening minutes of Episode 1 of The Power of the Daleks and a longer version of Katarina's death scene are in private hands because I have seen them. I remember clearly the time I was told that if I thought that every film that the BBC ordered destroyed was actually destroyed, then I am as crazy as the people who ordered their destruction -- why wouldn't these people take some home instead? Can you contact www.hockeymuseum.net about that 1936 reel please? I don’t know if it exists elsewhere.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 13, 2018 14:05:10 GMT
I need to be a bit careful about this because of my certainty that there can be a recovery of TPOTD. It's the only reason I have been so coy about this over the years.
In a very public forum, the people in question rebuked the head of the Australian branch of DWAS for his letter of resignation that began, and I quote, "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" and his general criticism of "The Twin Dilemma." One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor and believe 'The Twin Dilemma' is the strongest of them all."
Let us not debate the accuracy of this statement. (I still rank "The Twin Dilemma" as the worst story of the original Doctor Who.) The key is that this group of people incontrovertibly claimed to have seen "The Power of the Daleks". All of them are Americans. None had been abroad before this public forum. And these people had a copy of a clip that was not and is not in the BBC archives. I refuse to believe this is an accident. People with access to more information than even I had back then are even more sure that they have the entirety of TPOTD than I am -- I have a smidgen of doubt, but they are certain.
My problem with them is not that they held on to it. (Sure I resent it a bit, but as a collector, I get it.) My beef is that they are rank hypocrites -- In another public forum, another one of the group said that if you find a missing clip or episode to return it to the BBC, no questions asked, and don't ask for remuneration aside from the gratefulness of fans. To this day, I don't know how I managed not to betray my extra knowledge.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 13, 2018 14:06:32 GMT
Let's suppose we "exhaust all the available paths" for the missing episodes. Stuff still gets into weird places. One of my Dad's friends found that his late grandfather had a highlight reel of the 1936 Olympic Field Hockey Final -- that he never knew his family had and was thought to have been destroyed during Partition (1947) -- sometime during The Great Recession. It's now on YouTube. It's not in great shape but it's far better than nothing. I still maintain that Embassies and other diplomatic offices of the British government would be good places to check. AFAIK, no one has checked them, as time-consuming as it would undoubtedly be to check. I know a few people who quit the diplomatic corps since 20 January 2017 who told me that stuff like missing episodes would land at the Embassy or some other outpost -- including favourite restaurants, bars, etc. I have always believed that some of the rumours about what is in private hands were true. Although no one here believes it, I KNOW that the opening minutes of Episode 1 of The Power of the Daleks and a longer version of Katarina's death scene are in private hands because I have seen them. I remember clearly the time I was told that if I thought that every film that the BBC ordered destroyed was actually destroyed, then I am as crazy as the people who ordered their destruction -- why wouldn't these people take some home instead? Can you contact www.hockeymuseum.net about that 1936 reel please? I don’t know if it exists elsewhere. I didn't even think of that. I figured that because it was on YouTube, so anyone else who wanted it could have it. I will ask about it. Addendum: I just remembered that he gave it to the Indian Ambassador at the UN at the time. They should have it.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 13, 2018 14:15:35 GMT
Finding out the origin of that excised clip could very well crack open the mystery as to where The Daleks' Master Plan #4 went after it left the Film Library in the 1970s - not just for that episode, but for The Tenth Planet #4 and any others that were used by the Blue Peter team. The Power of the Daleks #1 would certainly be unexpected. Let's hope this leads to something.
I'm pretty sure that TTP4 and TDMP4 are the only two that vanished while in Blue Peter's care. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. Let me think this through a bit. For the moment, anyone who was associated with Blue Peter or the group who took clips from the archives would be a potential lead. (The clip from "Four Hundred Dawns" is from Blue Peter too, right?) If anything else vanished after use in other programmes, maybe there are people in common from both lists. Those would most likely be the best leads.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 13, 2018 14:49:10 GMT
In a very public forum, the people in question rebuked the head of the Australian branch of DWAS for his letter of resignation that began, and I quote, "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" and his general criticism of "The Twin Dilemma." One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor and believe 'The Twin Dilemma' is the strongest of them all." Let us not debate the accuracy of this statement. (I still rank "The Twin Dilemma" as the worst story of the original Doctor Who.) The key is that this group of people incontrovertibly claimed to have seen "The Power of the Daleks". All of them are Americans. None had been abroad before this public forum. And these people had a copy of a clip that was not and is not in the BBC archives. I wasn't aware that there was ever an Australian branch of the DWAS. Australia had its own fan club. That aside, what make you conclude that this was any different to a lot of the other blatantly untrue fan boasting that used to go on back in the 1980s?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 13, 2018 14:52:52 GMT
I'm pretty sure that TTP4 and TDMP4 are the only two that vanished while in Blue Peter's care. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. Let me think this through a bit. For the moment, anyone who was associated with Blue Peter or the group who took clips from the archives would be a potential lead. (The clip from "Four Hundred Dawns" is from Blue Peter too, right?) If anything else vanished after use in other programmes, maybe there are people in common from both lists. Those would most likely be the best leads. As discussed elsewhere, there no reason to suppose that The Tenth Planet #4 didn't end up back at BBC Enterprises after it's use on Blue Peter in 1973. The Traitors wasn't returned back to the BBC Film Library (where it was borrowed from), but it's entirely possible that also mistakenly went back to Enterprises, given that it was an Enterprises film print. Four Hundred Dawns had nothing to do with Blue Peter. That was borrowed for The Lively Arts in 1977.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 13, 2018 15:19:09 GMT
In a very public forum, the people in question rebuked the head of the Australian branch of DWAS for his letter of resignation that began, and I quote, "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" and his general criticism of "The Twin Dilemma." One of this same group of people said that he had seen, "all the first stories of each Doctor and believe 'The Twin Dilemma' is the strongest of them all." Let us not debate the accuracy of this statement. (I still rank "The Twin Dilemma" as the worst story of the original Doctor Who.) The key is that this group of people incontrovertibly claimed to have seen "The Power of the Daleks". All of them are Americans. None had been abroad before this public forum. And these people had a copy of a clip that was not and is not in the BBC archives. I wasn't aware that there was ever an Australian branch of the DWAS. Australia had its own fan club. That aside, what make you conclude that this was any different to a lot of the other blatantly untrue fan boasting that used to go on back in the 1980s? I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have.
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Post by lousingh on Jun 13, 2018 15:20:21 GMT
Let me think this through a bit. For the moment, anyone who was associated with Blue Peter or the group who took clips from the archives would be a potential lead. (The clip from "Four Hundred Dawns" is from Blue Peter too, right?) If anything else vanished after use in other programmes, maybe there are people in common from both lists. Those would most likely be the best leads. As discussed elsewhere, there no reason to suppose that The Tenth Planet #4 didn't end up back at BBC Enterprises after it's use on Blue Peter in 1973. The Traitors wasn't returned back to the BBC Film Library (where it was borrowed from), but it's entirely possible that also mistakenly went back to Enterprises, given that it was an Enterprises film print. Four Hundred Dawns had nothing to do with Blue Peter. That was borrowed for The Lively Arts in 1977. Thank you for the update and the corrections. Right now, when it comes to finding missing episodes, I think it is worth grabbing at anything that even vaguely resembles a straw.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 13, 2018 15:49:13 GMT
I wasn't aware that there was ever an Australian branch of the DWAS. Australia had its own fan club. That aside, what make you conclude that this was any different to a lot of the other blatantly untrue fan boasting that used to go on back in the 1980s? I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have. It seems gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/The_Power_of_the_Daleks that there were only two sets of prints. The ones that ended up in Singapore are probably long destroyed unless someone “acquired” them. It’s possible that one, or more, prints were “rescued” from the batch returned from Australia.
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Post by Richard Tipple on Jun 13, 2018 15:55:34 GMT
I wasn't aware that there was ever an Australian branch of the DWAS. Australia had its own fan club. That aside, what make you conclude that this was any different to a lot of the other blatantly untrue fan boasting that used to go on back in the 1980s? I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have. Is it not possible that the person claiming to have 'seen all of the first stories for each Doctor' meant he had watched them on Broadcast? If they had a clip or episode they didn't want to share, why did they give it a public screening? And you've definitely seen the Katarina clip? I do hope you're right and people are generous enough to return these clips/epsiodes one day,
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Post by Richard Tipple on Jun 13, 2018 16:14:24 GMT
I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have. It seems gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/The_Power_of_the_Daleks that there were only two sets of prints. The ones that ended up in Singapore are probably long destroyed unless someone “acquired” them. It’s possible that one, or more, prints were “rescued” from the batch returned from Australia. The Australia returns were 1975, right? Am I right thinking they contained: Galaxy 4, The Myth Makers, The Smugglers, The Tenth Planet, The Power of the Daleks, The Underwater Menace, The Moonbase, The Faceless Ones, The Evil of the Daleks, The Abominable Snowmen, The Invasion, The Ice Warriors, The Web of Fear, The Space Pirates, We know Galaxy 4 'Air Lock', The Underwater Menace 2, was from this batch..
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Post by lousingh on Jun 13, 2018 16:33:54 GMT
I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have. Is it not possible that the person claiming to have 'seen all of the first stories for each Doctor' meant he had watched them on Broadcast? If they had a clip or episode they didn't want to share, why did they give it a public screening? And you've definitely seen the Katarina clip? I do hope you're right and people are generous enough to return these clips/epsiodes one day, Mister X and his associates are Americans. IIRC (and this is 35 years after the fact) none of them had been out of the country before founding their group in the late 1970's / early 1980's. Even if Mister X had seen it when it was broadcast, he and his cronies had (at least part of) another copy handy. I should note that "public" is what passes as public in a make-shift Con Com after 2am. My brain is telling me there were a maximum of 10 people in the room when TPOTD was on. Then again, it was 2am. Both clips are definite. You can check anyone I know from DW fandom - they have heard these stories for years and years and years. I should mention that I treat finding the missing episodes the way I view lost art. I assume that the temperament and mentality of those with missing episodes is similar to those who have stolen art. Just pray that the person who has them does not do what we know happened with the Kunsthal Art Theft. That includes the following real-life example of what Paul et al. are talking about for not pushing too hard and not upsetting the possessors of the episodes: www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/16/worlddispatch.france. I just hope that they or their heirs find it in themselves to return the episodes.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 13, 2018 16:52:01 GMT
It seems gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/The_Power_of_the_Daleks that there were only two sets of prints. The ones that ended up in Singapore are probably long destroyed unless someone “acquired” them. It’s possible that one, or more, prints were “rescued” from the batch returned from Australia. The Australia returns were 1975, right? Am I right thinking they contained: Galaxy 4, The Myth Makers, The Smugglers, The Tenth Planet, The Power of the Daleks, The Underwater Menace, The Moonbase, The Faceless Ones, The Evil of the Daleks, The Abominable Snowmen, The Invasion, The Ice Warriors, The Web of Fear, The Space Pirates, We know Galaxy 4 'Air Lock', The Underwater Menace 2, was from this batch.. Yes, and probably Evil 2 amongst others.
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Jun 13, 2018 22:56:43 GMT
I still maintain that Embassies and other diplomatic offices of the British government would be good places to check. When I joined the Central office of Information in 1983, one of my first jobs was checking and cleaning 16mm prints returned from British embassies and high commissions. The COI, I'm guessing in conjunction with the FCO, used to purchase copies of British films (or films with a strong British element) to send out around the world. When they came back we'd check them before they were sent out again. Some of the titles we had were Gregory's Girl, A Passage to India, Local hero, Ghandi, Never Say Never Again, Escape to Victory, and A Room with a View. I think we even had a copy of Star Wars. If any TV programmes were sent out they never went through COI and we never had any odd prints finding their way back to us. Not saying it couldn't have happened but that's my experience.
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jun 14, 2018 12:56:31 GMT
I wasn't aware that there was ever an Australian branch of the DWAS. Australia had its own fan club. That aside, what make you conclude that this was any different to a lot of the other blatantly untrue fan boasting that used to go on back in the 1980s? I might be remembering the Australian club wrong, but the quote that "JN-T now produces Doctor Clown" sticks in my head after all these years. The reason I believe this one is based on the following facts: - Mister X claims to have seen "all the first stories of each Doctor" in a public forum. I will ask a friend of mine who might have save something from this forum to dig through his archives. - Mister X has a clip from "The Power of the Daleks" a public event - said clip was not in the BBC archives at the time and is not in the BBC archives now. There is no question of this. Although it is not an open-and-shut proof that I would end with "Q.E.D.", it is a reasonable inference that yes, Mister X has TPOTD E1. It is not a big jump to then assume that Mister X has the other 5 episodes. It is a particularly tiny jump when friends of yours have said they are certain that Mister X has them. In any event, I don't think it is a coincidence that Mister X has a clip handy that can be seen at a moment's request. I am more than willing to accept that maybe Mister X was exaggerating. But why bother? It's not like anyone would have thought the less of Mister X if he had said he had seen all but one of the opening stories. And, in any event, Mister X still has a missing clip that all the rest of us would love to see let alone have. I can confirm your memory of the "Doctor Clown" jibe, I've probably got the zine in question stashed in my shed.
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