Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 21:37:14 GMT
Hang on a minute, this school screening of Macra has never actually been proven to have taken place. From that outset it's been all words based on vague memories - stuff that can hardly be classified as evidence at this stage. Yet here we are, proposing detailed scenarios (names, places, dates etc.) as to how an event might have happened when that event might not have happened at all! This is totally bonkers stuff, but I love it. Like a Mad Hatter's tea party conversation, offering Alice wine when there isn't any on the table. Great stuff... I agree but I read the previous threads and my initial scepticism turned to a grudging perhaps. What does impress me is the sheer tenacity and dedication of those investigating something from 40+ years ago. Yes, it is a great example of dedication. There should be more investigations of this type, or at least a great deal of inspiration can be drawn from it. I still see this whole Macra showing as being hinged upon the sincere words of "I saw two episodes of the Macra Terror at school." I have no doubt that the person testifying to this is 100% sincere and is a thoroughly respectable person of integrity, but in my humble opinion, without evidence, childhood memories like this are frequently unreliable. A good example of this is a story my friend Steve related from late 1997 when was talking to his friend Ben in Devon about the Doctor Who 96 movie. Ben told him that at a birthday party in the mid-70s they were shown various old films (probably super-8 as was common then) by the birthday child's father and one of these films showed Daleks melting in a sandstorm, which scared the bejesus out of him at the time. Ben was (and I believe still is) no less than a Practice Doctor by profession, so his integrity and sincerity stands, and while Steve didn't doubt his sincerity at the time, the accuracy and evidence for his friend's story always leaves us both sceptical. We think Ben was probably recounting seeing the Walton Super 8 Dalek movie film - if even that. Like the Macra story, the Evil Mississippi transmission, all of these 'stories of words' seem to come long after the event, when it is impossible to prove them and the vital contacts involved are either no longer alive or have moved on to pastures new.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Wilkinson on May 21, 2018 22:13:51 GMT
I agree but I read the previous threads and my initial scepticism turned to a grudging perhaps. What does impress me is the sheer tenacity and dedication of those investigating something from 40+ years ago. Yes, it is a great example of dedication. There should be more investigations of this type, or at least a great deal of inspiration can be drawn from it. I still see this whole Macra showing as being hinged upon the sincere words of "I saw two episodes of the Macra Terror at school." I have no doubt that the person testifying to this is 100% sincere and is a thoroughly respectable person of integrity, but in my humble opinion, without evidence, childhood memories like this are frequently unreliable. A good example of this is a story my friend Steve related from late 1997 when was talking to his friend Ben in Devon about the Doctor Who 96 movie. Ben told him that at a birthday party in the mid-70s they were shown various old films (probably super-8 as was common then) by the birthday child's father and one of these films showed Daleks melting in a sandstorm, which scared the bejesus out of him at the time. Ben was (and I believe still is) no less than a Practice Doctor by profession, so his integrity and sincerity stands, and while Steve didn't doubt his sincerity at the time, the accuracy and evidence for his friend's story always leaves us both sceptical. We think Ben was probably recounting seeing the Walton Super 8 Dalek movie film - if even that. Like the Macra story, the Evil Mississippi transmission, all of these 'stories of words' seem to come long after the event, when it is impossible to prove them and the vital contacts involved are either no longer alive or have moved on to pastures new. It's not just one person who said that they saw Macra at school. In the thread, it was stated that someone was tested with three images of monsters (one being the Macra) and asked to identify which one was in the films that they saw - they identified correctly. I don't doubt that authenticity of the accounts, as if it didn't occur, the five-year long investigation wouldn't have revealed as much as it has done. You seem to be suggesting that just because there's no evidence for something ergo means it didn't happen. I would argue that it is only with evidence against something happening that you can truly rule it out, but the investigation has not flagged anything up contrary to the accounts that have been made. It may very well be unreliable, but the sources are at least respectable. The fact that it isn't a Dalek story makes this case stand out even further - the Macra only appeared in a single serial.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 22:36:27 GMT
Yes, it is a great example of dedication. There should be more investigations of this type, or at least a great deal of inspiration can be drawn from it. I still see this whole Macra showing as being hinged upon the sincere words of "I saw two episodes of the Macra Terror at school." I have no doubt that the person testifying to this is 100% sincere and is a thoroughly respectable person of integrity, but in my humble opinion, without evidence, childhood memories like this are frequently unreliable. A good example of this is a story my friend Steve related from late 1997 when was talking to his friend Ben in Devon about the Doctor Who 96 movie. Ben told him that at a birthday party in the mid-70s they were shown various old films (probably super-8 as was common then) by the birthday child's father and one of these films showed Daleks melting in a sandstorm, which scared the bejesus out of him at the time. Ben was (and I believe still is) no less than a Practice Doctor by profession, so his integrity and sincerity stands, and while Steve didn't doubt his sincerity at the time, the accuracy and evidence for his friend's story always leaves us both sceptical. We think Ben was probably recounting seeing the Walton Super 8 Dalek movie film - if even that. Like the Macra story, the Evil Mississippi transmission, all of these 'stories of words' seem to come long after the event, when it is impossible to prove them and the vital contacts involved are either no longer alive or have moved on to pastures new. It's not just one person who said that they saw Macra at school. In the thread, it was stated that someone was tested with three images of monsters (one being the Macra) and asked to identify which one was in the films that they saw - they identified correctly. I don't doubt that authenticity of the accounts, as if it didn't occur, the five-year long investigation wouldn't have revealed as much as it has done. You seem to be suggesting that just because there's no evidence for something ergo means it didn't happen. I would argue that it is only with evidence against something happening that you can truly rule it out, but the investigation has not flagged anything up contrary to the accounts that have been made. It may very well be unreliable, but the sources are at least respectable. The fact that it isn't a Dalek story makes this case stand out even further - the Macra only appeared in a single serial. But the School Teachers said they have no memory of it. These people were adults at the time, who organised the day. Childhood memories are not reliable at best, isolated or collective. I am aware that more than one person sincerely claims to have witnessed it, but it's no more proof than if one person made the claim. I trust the integrity of the claimants fully, yet evidence is still the vital ingredient of proving it took place. Even something as little as an entry in a diary at the time would blow away all of my own stubborn scepticism. As it stands, it's still words, of one or a few people. Macra is a story I would love to see and I believe all of the missing stories are stand outs. I want to believe it is out there, but this, like the Power screening in the Singapore school - for me isn't going to lead to finding those exact films. It is a remarkable story, I'll give it that, and the research into it has been done thoroughly and professionally. Still doesn't prove it happened though. In the case of The Evil of the Daleks home recording, the vital evidence ended up in the hands of three extremely privileged witnesses... even if it was a case of so near yet so far!
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on May 21, 2018 22:40:42 GMT
I agree but I read the previous threads and my initial scepticism turned to a grudging perhaps. What does impress me is the sheer tenacity and dedication of those investigating something from 40+ years ago. Yes, it is a great example of dedication. There should be more investigations of this type, or at least a great deal of inspiration can be drawn from it. I still see this whole Macra showing as being hinged upon the sincere words of "I saw two episodes of the Macra Terror at school." I have no doubt that the person testifying to this is 100% sincere and is a thoroughly respectable person of integrity, but in my humble opinion, without evidence, childhood memories like this are frequently unreliable. A good example of this is a story my friend Steve related from late 1997 when was talking to his friend Ben in Devon about the Doctor Who 96 movie. Ben told him that at a birthday party in the mid-70s they were shown various old films (probably super-8 as was common then) by the birthday child's father and one of these films showed Daleks melting in a sandstorm, which scared the bejesus out of him at the time. Ben was (and I believe still is) no less than a Practice Doctor by profession, so his integrity and sincerity stands, and while Steve didn't doubt his sincerity at the time, the accuracy and evidence for his friend's story always leaves us both sceptical. We think Ben was probably recounting seeing the Walton Super 8 Dalek movie film - if even that. Like the Macra story, the Evil Mississippi transmission, all of these 'stories of words' seem to come long after the event, when it is impossible to prove them and the vital contacts involved are either no longer alive or have moved on to pastures new. I’ve been here for a while and think, maybe hope!, that I’m known as a sceptic - I was very “hard” on things like the omnirumour and have no time for those who conjure up ad hoc scenarios to make more prints likely or who “interpret” everything and anything as “proof” that stories/episodes have been recovered. Most “sightings” can be easily eliminated as there is no possibility that prints were available or anywhere near at the time. What is notable about this - and it’s quite a while since I read the threads - is that, so far, there has been nothing to disprove the account. There’s an obvious “trap” in terms of proving a negative and I’m not going down the route that if you can’t disprove something it must be true. However, as far as I’m aware everything still hangs together. Are a couple of episodes of Macra Terror likely to be recovered? In reality I tthink it’s unlikely, but I’m not convinced they weren’t shown.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 22:52:18 GMT
Yes, nothing to disprove the account from the sincere testimonies and thorough research, but the physical evidence of these Macra films being shown on the day has so far not been forthcoming. This is why I started this thread on this home video recording of Evil. I'm not going to necessarily take what's written in print in Doctor Who Magazine about missing episodes as evidence (especially not after the Taiwan fiasco). I wanted to know more details and evidence about this apparent fact. Through discussion on here that has been arrived at. This is a case of something being proved, long after the event.
|
|
|
Post by Luke Sherlaw on May 22, 2018 1:08:02 GMT
I’ve been here for a while and think, maybe hope!, that I’m known as a sceptic I'm very new on here and I'm getting to know the forum regulars. From my short time on here so far, I do see you as one of the bigger sceptics on here John, and I don't mean that in a bad way whatsoever. You are usually one of the first to remind everyone to keep their expectations low and to debunk any conjuring of prints etc. As a biologist myself, I would like to think I require empirical evidence because I draw conclusions too. The only specific episode i'd even go as far to say i'm very confident exists is WoF 3. I believe others are out there, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 1:35:46 GMT
It's not just one person who said that they saw Macra at school. In the thread, it was stated that someone was tested with three images of monsters (one being the Macra) and asked to identify which one was in the films that they saw - they identified correctly. Could you find the reference for this, Chris? It sounds far out, the idea of someone being tested with images of Doctor Who monsters! Thoughts of the Keller Machine torturing the Doctor comes to mind...
|
|
|
Post by Luke Sherlaw on May 22, 2018 3:41:07 GMT
Could you find the reference for this, Chris? It sounds far out, the idea of someone being tested with images of Doctor Who monsters! Thoughts of the Keller Machine torturing the Doctor comes to mind... Sounds like something Elizabeth Loftus would have people doing more like.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 4:19:42 GMT
Could you find the reference for this, Chris? It sounds far out, the idea of someone being tested with images of Doctor Who monsters! Thoughts of the Keller Machine torturing the Doctor comes to mind... Sounds like something Elizabeth Loftus would have people doing more like. Yes, I've just followed through on your post to look at the work of Elizabeth Loftus. According to Wikipedia, "She has conducted extensive research on the malleability of human memory" and "is best known for her ground-breaking work on the misinformation effect". I find this interesting and relevant to the above discussion particularly this: "The misinformation effect happens when a person's recall of episodic memories becomes less accurate because of post-event information." These memories of the School showings of Macra and Power, and the Mississippi Evil broadcast, as well as Ben's aforementioned memory of cine-projected Dalek images; we are talking a good number of years ago. Much time has passed since, and the person making these sincere claims will have seen x-number of hours of post-event images. Given this, and coupled with the fact of how unreliable childhood memories can be, can we really accept word for word these testimonies, no matter the persons sincerity?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 4:37:11 GMT
Also, was this Macra identification test conducted under properly controlled conditions? Furthermore, if the first two episodes of The Macra Terror were shown (as claimed), then this is just about all that the pupils would have seen of the Macra: The second episode does not display the monster clearly to the viewer - as we know. So I am suspicious somewhat that this may have been the image that was shown to the test subject: Which would certainly not have been an objective choice for the test, as the full body of the creature is not displayed in episode 2. Unless the claw was the element which jogged the subject's memory? And which other two Doctor Who monsters were selected in the identification test? Zarbi? Rills? And did that particular selection have any bearing on the subject's choice? The mind boggles...
|
|
|
Post by Chris Wilkinson on May 22, 2018 12:57:30 GMT
It's not just one person who said that they saw Macra at school. In the thread, it was stated that someone was tested with three images of monsters (one being the Macra) and asked to identify which one was in the films that they saw - they identified correctly. Could you find the reference for this, Chris? It sounds far out, the idea of someone being tested with images of Doctor Who monsters! Thoughts of the Keller Machine torturing the Doctor comes to mind... 'a couple of years back David Creighton (hi David ! ) did some brilliant research , used the Mind Probe on me via email ..... and directly interviewed some of my fellow students at the time, and discovered several who clearly remembered the screening , as well , David showed pictures of various Who monsters , as a blind test , and asked them to identify what was in the school screening , and they picked the Macra straight away'.
- Neil Lambess (2014), missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/8331/macra-new-zealand-revisited?page=7
|
|
|
Post by Rob Moss on May 22, 2018 14:52:16 GMT
Yes, nothing to disprove the account from the sincere testimonies and thorough research, but the physical evidence of these Macra films being shown on the day has so far not been forthcoming. What physical evidence do you imagine there would be..? Something like this is bound to be based on anecdotal evidence, not physical proof.
|
|
|
Post by PAUL COTTON on May 22, 2018 16:42:25 GMT
The Dalek sandstorm memory sounds like a sequence from The Chase, which fortunately isn't a missing story.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 20:47:15 GMT
This New Zealand school Macra screenimg research would be a great extra on a future Macra Terror dvd should we get either a an animated version or PM recovery. I hope all this research and the memory tests were recorded.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 20:51:01 GMT
Yes, nothing to disprove the account from the sincere testimonies and thorough research, but the physical evidence of these Macra films being shown on the day has so far not been forthcoming. What physical evidence do you imagine there would be..? Something like this is bound to be based on anecdotal evidence, not physical proof. A diary entry from the time is a good form of evidence that these films were made. People kept diaries back then, as well as school records of events of the day. Also documentation that these films were offically signed out of the television storage facility to be used at the school.
|
|