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Post by Ed Brown on Mar 12, 2017 21:45:38 GMT
I think perhaps you missed the point: one can seek for anything in such a campaign - not just reels of tape. Reels of film, for instance. Very few to be found - some stories had very few prints struck. We don't actually know that for a fact. We really know very little: there are relatively few people still around to be asked, and the written evidence is very limited and patchy. I don't believe it is possible to draw a firm conclusion. We can only make assumptions, we can't know anything for certain. Therefore any conclusion we might reach has to be tested. One way to test whether any film prints exist in the UK is to ask the general public. This might be done by adopting the same approach as in the case of the radio episodes I mentioned, through the letters pages of local newspapers. In the case of the radio episodes, a group of fans got together to share the work: one wrote a standard letter, then e-mailed it to all the local newspapers in England and Wales, mentioning an e-mail address to reply to, and a postal address (the home address of a member of the group) to reply to - and to mail cassettes or tapes to. Someone else set up a website, as a contact point, the address of which was also mentioned in the letter sent to the newspapers. And it was that web site's e-mail address which was mentioned in the letter as a reply address. Another volunteer then dealt with the e-mails which were received, sending back acknoledgements and following up promising leads by telephone. It was a successful campaign, they got a lot of leads and found a lot of recordings that way. We would count any such effort a success if it led to just a single episode being recovered!
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Post by John Wall on Mar 13, 2017 9:42:47 GMT
Very few to be found - some stories had very few prints struck. We don't actually know that for a fact. We really know very little: there are relatively few people still around to be asked, and the written evidence is very limited and patchy. I don't believe it is possible to draw a firm conclusion. We can only make assumptions, we can't know anything for certain. Therefore any conclusion we might reach has to be tested. One way to test whether any film prints exist in the UK is to ask the general public. This might be done by adopting the same approach as in the case of the radio episodes I mentioned, through the letters pages of local newspapers. In the case of the radio episodes, a group of fans got together to share the work: one wrote a standard letter, then e-mailed it to all the local newspapers in England and Wales, mentioning an e-mail address to reply to, and a postal address (the home address of a member of the group) to reply to - and to mail cassettes or tapes to. Someone else set up a website, as a contact point, the address of which was also mentioned in the letter sent to the newspapers. And it was that web site's e-mail address which was mentioned in the letter as a reply address. Another volunteer then dealt with the e-mails which were received, sending back acknoledgements and following up promising leads by telephone. It was a successful campaign, they got a lot of leads and found a lot of recordings that way. We would count any such effort a success if it led to just a single episode being recovered! Actually we DO know that some stories had very few prints struck. Many years ago there was an article where Ian Levene claimed that a print was struck for every overseas broadcaster - but then "bicycling" was discovered. Jon Preddle, and others, have done a lot of work on this and there is a lot of information on line. I would concede that we don't know EXACTLY how many prnts of each episode were struck but the figure has become more accurate over the years. What's important is to realise is that Enterprises were dealing with, probably, hundreds and hundreds of prints of all sorts of programmes - Dr Who was a small percentage of the total. We also know that some of the very small broadcasters were paying very small amounts - as little as £10/£20 per episode, which wasn't a lot, even in the 60s. Consequently some prints went on quite lengthy trips - which are documented - as that was the most economic solution. A phenomenal amount of research has been done over the years - such as finding out about Terry Nation "withdrawing" the Daleks - and this should be the starting point rather than inventing scenarios.
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Post by martinjwills on Mar 13, 2017 11:47:51 GMT
The fantastic website The destruction of time - how many prints shows the recent thinking on the number of prints.
It shows there were at least 9 sets of Marco Polo doing the rounds overseas, plus the 2 sets in the BBC, Stored Field & Suppressed Field. Later stories, only had 4 or 5, and some only 2.
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Post by John Wall on Mar 13, 2017 14:01:05 GMT
The fantastic website The destruction of time - how many prints shows the recent thinking on the number of prints. It shows there were at least 9 sets of Marco Polo doing the rounds overseas, plus the 2 sets in the BBC, Stored Field & Suppressed Field. Later stories, only had 4 or 5, and some only 2. See also the BroaDWcast website.
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Post by simonashby on Mar 14, 2017 11:28:10 GMT
Actually, the O/P's proposal is perfectly reasonable. No it's not! I recollect, a few years back, a keen fan of the BBC's radio show The Clitheroe Kid led a drive to recover missing episodes from that series, on reel-to-reel or cassette. He found a lot of episodes! So his strategy can't be faulted. He wrote to practically every local newspaper in the UK, possibly by e-mail, a letter for inserting in the letters column, explaining that many episodes of the show that aired between 1958 and 1972 are missing from the BBC archives, and asking if any reader had any recordings taped off air during that period. I emphasise that he wrote to local newspapers, not to national ones. The sort of free papers that are now becoming less common, but still reach a surprisingly large proportion of the population. He seemed to ascribe his success rate to one fact especially: that although young people no longer read newspapers, he was trying to reach people old enough to remember the 1960s - precisely the sort of people who still do read the newspaper. And because he targeted mostly free papers, that gave him an even bigger readership. How can you even compare writing to local press to cold calling from door to door? This is a much more realistic and reasonable strategy. Actually, the O/P's proposal is perfectly reasonable. Just in case you didn't hear me the first time: No it's not!
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Post by Steven Sigel on Mar 14, 2017 17:57:19 GMT
Actually, the O/P's proposal is perfectly reasonable. No it's not! Hear! Hear! As a film collector (who happens to have Dr. Who prints) - if someone came knocking on my door asking about them, I would call the police. The corollary to this is the few times I sold some spare prints on ebay -- got flooded with really annoying messages from fans - some well meaning, and other downright rude and obnoxious,
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 15, 2017 8:35:41 GMT
We're on a point here where it's not always clear to all if something is slightly ironic or not.
Which reminds me I've been meaning to post my suggestion that perhaps we could go from door to door OFFERING Doctor Who telerecordings. Then if there are any takers who say, "I'll put it with the others", or, "That completes the set", or, "Put it on top of those other BBC Enterprises film cans", then we know who they are and where they live.
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Post by simonashby on Mar 15, 2017 10:53:33 GMT
The point of this door-knocking thread was the query the matter of unidentified people out there who have ME episodes who don't know that they're missing, not persons who are aware of what they are holding in their houses. If there was an organised door-to-door campaign then I wouldn't even bother knocking on their doors; complete waste of time. It looks very much like a query about knocking door-to-door to me... and then again in Singapore etc... There's no harm in admitting it was a daft idea. If you had meant to ask about public awareness then you should just do that. The point in the first post is an entirely different one. Everything is else is going to be a distraction and make things go off on a tangent... just has it has...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 20:07:31 GMT
Of course door knocking is a daft idea. But if you recall, someone once asked about doing a boots on the ground search in Africa because the TV stations still have loads of British films over there. That individual was shot down for it being a daft idea (not those exact words). If he'd followed that 'forget about it' advice, I wouldn't be watching The Enemy of the World right now I wonder how many more Mr Watsons are still out there in the UK, unaware that the film can containing a 16mm print of Volcano (for e.g.) hanging idly in a plastic bag from a coat hook is in fact missing? How are those people to be reached? Local paper? Door knocking? What? Come the day those individuals pass on, surely their equally unaware relatives will just throw that film can out as worthless junk...
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Post by John Wall on Mar 15, 2017 21:49:51 GMT
Of course door knocking is a daft idea. But if you recall, someone once asked about doing a boots on the ground search in Africa because the TV stations still have loads of British films over there. That individual was shot down for it being a daft idea (not those exact words). If he'd followed that 'forget about it' advice, I wouldn't be watching The Enemy of the World right now I wonder how many more Mr Watsons are still out there in the UK, unaware that the film can containing a 16mm print of Volcano (for e.g.) hanging idly in a plastic bag from a coat hook is in fact missing? How are those people to be reached? Local paper? Door knocking? What? Come the day those individuals pass on, surely their equally unaware relatives will just throw that film can out as worthless junk... UM2 and Airlock were in the possession of a collector who didn't know they were missing. Are there any more like that ? Possibly. Film collectors are unlikely to be young so what happens when they die ? Does their widow dump those ****ing films in a skip ? There isn't an easy answer:-(
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Post by simonashby on Mar 16, 2017 0:23:00 GMT
Of course door knocking is a daft idea. But if you recall, someone once asked about doing a boots on the ground search in Africa because the TV stations still have loads of British films over there. That individual was shot down for it being a daft idea (not those exact words). If he'd followed that 'forget about it' advice, I wouldn't be watching The Enemy of the World right now I wonder how many more Mr Watsons are still out there in the UK, unaware that the film can containing a 16mm print of Volcano (for e.g.) hanging idly in a plastic bag from a coat hook is in fact missing? How are those people to be reached? Local paper? Door knocking? What? Come the day those individuals pass on, surely their equally unaware relatives will just throw that film can out as worthless junk... This is confusing. You're now saying it's a daft idea, and then you seem to try and say it might not be with the Phil Morris comparison. You can't compare the two. You just can't. Phil Morris had contacts and intended to reach stations and suchlike based on information and records, building a clearer picture as he went along. It's infinitely more considered and accurate than knocking on doors. Knocking on doors is a non-starter just based on sheer numbers. You've answered your own question in a previous post: Newspapers (both print and online). It's worked before and is the only realistic way of reaching the masses, that is until the BBC do another One show feature or the like. Just because people thought that both these ideas were a bit outlandish at the time they were suggested doesn't make them equal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 4:14:01 GMT
I still insist it's a daft idea. In my initial post I highlight who does it and the way people generally react to it negatively. From this, the whole suggestion or concept from the outset is undeniably daft.
I wasn't saying the boots on the ground approach was similarly daft by comparison. I was just saying that some people at the time saw it as a daft/don't bother.
If door knocking worked as a way to reach collectors out there with Who episodes, then the daftness part of it becomes irrelevant. So it is not important whether it is outlandish, so long as it works. Although it's a 'daft idea', door knocking can't be proven as being completely fruitless. For example, the JWs reap souls through door knocking, and the MPs get voters, and to them the door-to-door method, however unconventional, is obviously a workable method. There are ways to make it less outlandish: smart dress; light knocking of the door; polite approach with a friendly smile and handshake; some literature to hand over, so that the receiver understands our mission better; a phone number or e-mail contact on the literature in case the person thinks they might have "something in the loft" but can't check at the moment.
Radio/TV spots, plus local newspapers are great, but it isn't the direct approach of door knocking, which does reach people on a one-to-one basis. Someone might not subscribe to the local newspaper or be watching The One Show because Coronation Street is on the other side (incidentally, did The One Show appeal actually yield any fruit?).
We have an example of 3 episodes mentioned above, held by people who didn't know they were missing episodes. Based on that, how many more missing episodes might there be in people's homes? One, or two more?
On the sheer numbers factor in this country, is there is a Who fan living on every street? I doubt that (and definitely not in Singapore). But what would happen if everyone door knocked their street in the name of MEs? One episode recovered from that? Probably not. But let's say it did yield one film can; would it be worth all that door knocking? I think so.
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Post by Ed Brown on Mar 16, 2017 11:11:00 GMT
Radio/TV spots, plus local newspapers are great, but it isn't the direct approach of door knocking, which does reach people on a one-to-one basis. Someone might not subscribe to the local newspaper ... The campaign I mentioned, which recovered many missing radio episodes, was carried out by placing the appeal for recordings in free newspapers. The point was to avoid placing the appeal in a newspaper that people had to subscribe to. By targeting mainly the free papers, the appeal reached a larger number of people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 23:01:49 GMT
And those free papers seem to be on the wane, sadly, with only the local ones that you have to pay for now available.
Another idea related to door knocking is that there are always leaflets being put through peoples doors asking for any unwanted bric-a-brac. This shows how the venture is possible on a wide scale, if these scrap merchants can pull it off. Leaflets could be distributed asking for any unwanted old films - cine films, reels of film and such. Never know what might turn up in response.
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Owen Conway
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Post by Owen Conway on Mar 17, 2017 12:11:09 GMT
Want an even more absurd idea? Request search warrants for every property in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and investigate them all for missing episodes
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