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Post by Paul Vanezis on Nov 12, 2014 0:31:06 GMT
Hi Ken,
Yes, you're right except that the BBC gave back to Anderson the very original transfer it made back in 1976. I don't think they ever did wipe it.
Laurence seems to think Anderson made a conscious decision to keep a VT copy over the higher quality original 35mm. In fact I think they made a conscious decision to destroy the programme entirely and in fact succeeded. It appears that it only survives because the BBC kept their copy in the original and cut versions.
All the links which refer to material being cut in 1997 point to the BBC wiping their original version, and various people expressed 'shock' at that. That narks me for reasons I have made clear in this thread. None of us want to see material disposed of now, in 1997 or ever. In this case not only was it not, but even if it had we could not reasonably blame the BBC for destroying their tape.
What I'd like to see is people expressing opinion based on fact, not rumour, supposition and certainly not base their comments on what their mate down the pub has told them nor stuff which can't be certain to be true and found floating on the internet.
Paul
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Post by Peter Stirling on Nov 12, 2014 8:19:03 GMT
What remains fact is that NBC also showed it as a 50 min version....just like the BBC, so why would BBC be editing a bought in programme that was already to roll?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 8:42:06 GMT
Thanks for the useful info, Ken. This would make sense and maybe explain what would have been an untypical situation of Anderson seeming to produce a finished programme on VT. An edited film version existing prior to the BBC's VT transmission copy is what I assumed there had to be all along (rather than just rushes), being as film was a more universal format back then. This was actually what I was saying earlier in the thread, if people read it properly.
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Post by George D on Nov 12, 2014 15:54:27 GMT
I'm confused. Is the 50 minute version all there is or is there a longer one on vt with the bbc?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 16:12:06 GMT
No. The 50 minute version is all that was ever screened by the BBC. If there was a longer edit, it would have been something put together by Anderson at an earlier stage and independent of what was transmitted (although there's no real evidence to suggest an 80 minute version was ever assembled). Chinese Whispers, I think.
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Post by Marie Griffiths on Nov 15, 2014 18:46:38 GMT
even in 1997, a PAL transfer wouldn't have appeared much of a lower quality option. Working in the industry HD was definitely in the pipeline for consumers by 1997.
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Post by George D on Nov 15, 2014 23:01:51 GMT
Hi paul, Like you, i dont like to speculate. I like facts. Im curious what facts you have uncovered. Have you found a shipping log or something saying it was sent back? Im not making any conclusions (or even opinions) but if nothimg else surfaces to verify things, with Gerry Andersons track record that most of their shows exist and without mentioning the BBC's track record, it does encourage people to wonder what happened, which I hope is ok to say. Hi Ken, Yes, you're right except that the BBC gave back to Anderson the very original transfer it made back in 1976. I don't think they ever did wipe it. Laurence seems to think Anderson made a conscious decision to keep a VT copy over the higher quality original 35mm. In fact I think they made a conscious decision to destroy the programme entirely and in fact succeeded. It appears that it only survives because the BBC kept their copy in the original and cut versions. All the links which refer to material being cut in 1997 point to the BBC wiping their original version, and various people expressed 'shock' at that. That narks me for reasons I have made clear in this thread. None of us want to see material disposed of now, in 1997 or ever. In this case not only was it not, but even if it had we could not reasonably blame the BBC for destroying their tape. What I'd like to see is people expressing opinion based on fact, not rumour, supposition and certainly not base their comments on what their mate down the pub has told them nor stuff which can't be certain to be true and found floating on the internet. Paul
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Post by markboulton on Nov 17, 2014 18:04:06 GMT
"In fact I THINK"... some people's conjecture is more respected than others, it seems.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Nov 18, 2014 0:43:57 GMT
"In fact I THINK"... some people's conjecture is more respected than others, it seems. In this case, that conjecture is entirely reasonable, as none of the film survives and the people who made it and would have kept the negative, soundtrack and the 35mm prints don't have that material. Therefore, they deliberately threw it all away. It wasn't simply mislaid. At least I am offering my thoughts transparently and not stating it as fact. The truth is that the only surviving copy is the transfer the BBC originally made. This thread began with comments knocking the BBC for wiping it, which I THINK is rather unfair to them. Paul
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 8:52:04 GMT
To be clear, there was NO mention of the BBC at all (other than a comment taken from Wiki in quotes and not therefore reported as fact) as this was known to be an independent production all along. All the stuff about the BBC as guilty party was pure assumption on your part, I'm afraid.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Nov 18, 2014 9:27:07 GMT
That's not true Laurence.
Various people said that they were shocked that a tape had been wiped in 1997 in response to the OP, who linked to the articles. The only mention of a tape being wiped was in the articles and not in any posts, but people weren't being shocked by hot air, were they.
If you read what the OP said and follow the links, the BBC is clearly mentioned as having wiped their tape in 1997 in the Fanderson article. It wasn't Anderson being inferred as the culprit. People said that they were shocked at a tape being wiped in 1997 (by the BBC). I didn't infer it, it's the only possible conclusion and I'm merely setting the record straight.
I'll say again, facts speak louder than words. For a time, 'Into Infinity' was listed as a missing show, which I found confusing as it was sitting on a tape in the BBC and I knew about it. In fact, Steve Roberts reminded me that I transferred it for 'Telly Addicts' years ago from the two inch.
As the Anderson Entertainment copy is complete, it can only be from the BBC's original transfer, which if you believe the articles, was wiped in 1997, yet somehow magically reappeared on the Fanderson release (in April 1997) and repeated the other week on the BBC (2014).
You mentioned 'chinese whispers' regarding the existence of an 80 minute version; I suspect that the real chinese whispers revolve around the imaginary wiping of a tape.
Paul
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 9:45:18 GMT
Read the posts properly. There was NO mention of the BBC other than in quotation marks (mentioning what was said elsewhere). Ray and myself both commented that it was shocking that the original had been wiped, which was when you leapt in, wrongly assuming it was singling out the BBC (neither of us mentioned them as we both knew full well it was independently made and were not taking links to other "facts" elsewhere as gospel).
I defend all the posters in this thread who - as genuine fans of archive television and on a forum about missing episodes - have the perfectly natural reaction of being shocked when news of something being wiped is reported, whoever it turns out does the wiping. The facts were very quickly sorted out from the fiction though but people were merely reporting what has been said elsewhere. No reason at all to get indignant about it.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Nov 18, 2014 14:55:41 GMT
Hi Laurence, ...and the article states: "A copy of the edited episode is retained by the BBC in their archive, so a future repeat screening cannot be ruled out, although the BBC's master tape of the complete programme was wiped early in 1997." To which you responded: "Shocking if it was wiped as late as 1997." ...and not unreasonably others agreed. So, what were you being shocked about? Paul
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Post by George D on Nov 18, 2014 15:36:04 GMT
For a time, 'Into Infinity' was listed as a missing show, which I found confusing as it was sitting on a tape in the BBC and I knew about it. In fact, Steve Roberts reminded me that I transferred it for 'Telly Addicts' years ago from the two inch. This I found interesting and Im curious if this is why its being taken so personally. Paul, if you feel people are blaming you for it, then that has not been done. We are all merely human, not all knowing, and prone to mistakes. As the Anderson Entertainment copy is complete, it can only be from the BBC's original transfer, which if you believe the articles, was wiped in 1997, yet somehow magically reappeared on the Fanderson release (in April 1997) and repeated the other week on the BBC (2014). With our group of connected archivists, Im really surprised no one has reached out to Anderson's group to find out how/where they got their print. Regardless, unless there was a longer print, this is fortunately not a lost show. We are fortunate that it exists and since it's from a BBC print, at least we know that regardless of what else happened, at least the existing copy was directly or indirectly connected to them.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Nov 18, 2014 18:07:35 GMT
Hi George,
I'm not taking anything personally. I enjoyed 'Into Infinity' when it was first on and have enjoyed it subsequently. But what I object to is information on the internet presented often as fact and further commented on, which in some bizarre way offers some sort of confirmation that the information is truthful.
I didn't infer or read anything into what was presented and it isn't the fault of Laurence or Ray that they reacted the way they did. I mean, who wouldn't when presented with the fact that the BBC wiped the only copy of something in 1997? It stands to reason that the BBC would do that because they have form. That is what people learn from what is in effect misinformation and it promotes two things. Firstly, it perpetuates the myth that the BBC routinely wipe material without reference to the owners of such material. In my experience it only wipes its own material after it has been reviewed. Secondly, it spreads false information making it more difficult to get to the truth.
What we have done on this thread is prove that if there ever was an 80 minute version, it was nothing to do with the BBC and therefore couldn't have wiped it. I don't believe that it ever existed. We have also proved that regardless of the BBC disposing of the original version they had, they didn't get rid of it before providing Anderson Entertainment with a very nice transfer of it.
The BBC are not saints, not by any stretch, but they at least do maintain an archive which is envied by many. Hopefully, thanks to the new BBC Store, we will get to see more of it over the next few years.
Regards,
Paul
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