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Post by lousingh on Jun 18, 2014 22:28:41 GMT
I would have loved a "Doctor-Lite" episode after Rose got trapped in the alternate universe where her friends and family are telling her to stop pining for the Doctor, grow up, and move on. It's one of the few series that can get away with something that so plays against TV conventions; it should have availed itself of the opportunity to do so. Wasn't going to happen with RTD at the helm. His vision of the show was very much one big Mary Sue fanfic, with Davies as the companion, not the Doctor. What your propose would have been way too close to psychotherapy. Sadly, I think you are right. I always liked that Doctor Who would combine movies and books in strange and occasionally subversive ways within a serial. Sadly, if Doctor Who wasn't going to do that with Rose, then I have no hope for other series to deal with it. I have been debating the problems with shipping from a psychological angle. In general, they make people believe that "true love" just falls out of the sky and the relationship is perfect. Then, depending on the ship, one of two mindsets gets re-inforced: 1. F/M who has dated a bunch of idiots while a really nice but ordinary M/F who has had a thing for her/him waits for her/him to see what has been in front of her/him all the time. Eventually, s/he realises (s)he's the perfect boy/girl. 2. F/M who always gets everything s/he wants has a BFF who either gets M/F who will settle for her/him as the F/M's scraps. But the best M/F they never dated sees her/him for how great s/he is while the original BFF fails to take what that person offers. So when Doctor Who turns into a shipper show, it loses the edge it has in that it can subvert these cliches.
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Post by Johnathan Molyneux on Jun 25, 2014 20:49:21 GMT
I've never heard anyone say anything negative because I prefer the old series. Then again I've seen so many people online criticising those who prefer the new. I like both although I'm more interested in reading about the classic series. A lot of people just seem butthurt because the new series isn't made like we are still in the 60's, 70's or 80's (delete depending on your age). There's things to like in both the old and new. There's things to dislike in both too. I find the whole subject a bit pointless though. Almost depressing. Besides when people say they prefer the classic series which one is that? Because Hartnell stories have bugger all similarity to, for instance, Tom Baker stories except for the name of the show. Early Tom Baker stories have little in common with later Tom Baker stories except for the name Tom Baker (and I think he'd changed a lot in those years). Even in the space of a few years the show can change massively. Plus of course classic series fans can themselves be massively critical of the classic series if it isn't their preferred period. Try telling a Pertwee or Tom Baker era fan you like McCoy.
Sorry for the long post. Just spent a while reading posts on a classic series Facebook page complaining about the new series. Does make me head the desk a bit. Mostly it seems to me old series fans criticise the new and new series fans are quite open to the old.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 26, 2014 11:16:22 GMT
you say that but in the William Hartnell story 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' the Tardis is covered in rubble blocking the door....and The Doctor & co discover a world dominated by Daleks who have captured humans and are forcing them to work as slaves in workgangs
while years later in the Tom Baker story 'Destiny of The Daleks' the Tardis is covered in rubble blocking the door....and the Doctor & co discover a world dominated by Daleks who have captured humans and are forcing them to work as slaves in workgangs...
In the William Hartnell story 'The Time Meddler' a renegade Timelord (The 'Meddling Monk') is using later era technology to try to alter the course of established Earth history (re the Viking invasion) & The Doctor outsmarts him...and duly 'nobbles' his Tardis at the end...
while years later in the Peter Davison story 'The Kings Demons' The Doctor discovers that another renegade Timelord ('The Master') is using later era technology to try to alter the course of established Earth history (re King John & Magna Carta etc) & The Doctor outsmarts him....and duly 'nobbles' his Tardis at the end..
IN the William Hartnell story; 'The War Machines' an all powerful computer named WOTAN is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it....
while in The Jon Pertwee story; 'The Green Death' an all powerful computer named BOSS is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it...
and in the Tom Baker story; 'The Face of Evil' an all powerful computer named XOANON (or something like that) is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it...
Not quite so different a show then...?
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Post by Johnathan Molyneux on Jun 26, 2014 12:26:33 GMT
I think in 26 years the production styles, acting styles, tone of the programme changed a lot. Therefore the experience of watching the show changed a lot. Although for children it was probably thrilling and a little scary whichever period was theirs. Of course in some stories the general ideas will have similarities but you make it sound like the show is obviously the same throughout 26 years because they kept just rehashing the same plots? I wonder how many people when watching Vengeance on Varos with people falling into acid or Attack of the Cybermen with its hand crushing gore find it similar to watching The Romans, The Rescue or The Keys of Marinus? How many people would think they could have been made in the same season along with, say, Logopolis or Castrovalva? How many think that Nazis killing people in Genesis of the Daleks is just like Dominators killing people? People die so it's all the same? The tone changes a lot over 26 years. Each production team brought their own ideas as to how the show should be. If the program hadn't changed a lot it would never have lasted 26 years. It would never have stayed fresh. If someone can't see the changes in that time I'd be amazed. Even the central character changes greatly.
Anyway in The Daleks Invasion of Earth the Daleks are invading the earth. In The Parting of the Ways the Daleks are coming to invade the Earth. In both a guy called Doctor stops them. In Logopolis the Doctor encounters the Master, falls from a great height and ends up regenerating. In The End of Time the Doctor encounters the Master, falls from a great height and ends up regenerating Therefore hey the program hasn't changed at all? I really wish in the new series they'd make it different.
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Post by Paul G on Jun 26, 2014 12:49:23 GMT
you say that but in the William Hartnell story 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' the Tardis is covered in rubble blocking the door....and The Doctor & co discover a world dominated by Daleks who have captured humans and are forcing them to work as slaves in workgangs while years later in the Tom Baker story 'Destiny of The Daleks' the Tardis is covered in rubble blocking the door....and the Doctor & co discover a world dominated by Daleks who have captured humans and are forcing them to work as slaves in workgangs... In the William Hartnell story 'The Time Meddler' a renegade Timelord (The 'Meddling Monk') is using later era technology to try to alter the course of established Earth history (re the Viking invasion) & The Doctor outsmarts him...and duly 'nobbles' his Tardis at the end... while years later in the Peter Davison story 'The Kings Demons' The Doctor discovers that another renegade Timelord ('The Master') is using later era technology to try to alter the course of established Earth history (re King John & Magna Carta etc) & The Doctor outsmarts him....and duly 'nobbles' his Tardis at the end.. IN the William Hartnell story; 'The War Machines' an all powerful computer named WOTAN is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it.... while in The Jon Pertwee story; 'The Green Death' an all powerful computer named BOSS is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it... and in the Tom Baker story; 'The Face of Evil' an all powerful computer named XOANON (or something like that) is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it... Not quite so different a show then...? Yet if you look at how these shows are made & shot, the characterisations, the plotting beyond the basic premise of the stories, then they're radically different. Can you imagine a character like Leela appearing in 'The War Machines'? Look at 'The War Games' and 'Spearhead from Space'. They've scarcely anything in common at all, apart from a central character called the Doctor (who doesn't even look or act they same). In just about every conceivable way they're completely different shows. And they were made in the same year!
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Post by lousingh on Jun 26, 2014 13:16:46 GMT
One reason I brought this up is because it does happen to me. I may never go to Gallifrey Base or read DWM again. My nephews' and nieces' friends find it strange that I am more enthused about the recovery of "The Enemy of the World" than I was about "Stolen Earth." Heck, I worked at a place where several co-workers used my preference for old DW as evidence that I was holding the company back technologically because I refused to change with the times. (In exchange for them staying and getting promoted, they used that as part of the grist of the case for firing me!)
Obviously, the evolution of Doctor Who mirrors that of society. Look at the attitudes towards women, minorities, religions, etc. in the Hartnell stories compared to the McCoy era; then compare that to the Smith stories. It is eye-opening. When I watch the older stories, I have to remember the attitudes prevalent in the era they were filmed versus what I know now, or else some of them would offend me like no business.
Obviously, the pacing of stories has sped up over time. Sometimes, that clears out what we now would consider dead space, but other times, we lose out on characterisation, background culture, etc. Similarly, the style, tone, and mood of the series has changed over time. The current trend I don't like is the lack of emphasis on the universe outside of Earth.
I should point out that in an abstract sense, it is very hard to write truly different story. A new story "Invasion of Planet X" is likely going to seem like "The Dalek Invasion of Earth," "The Invasion," "The Claws of Axos," etc. in a macro sense; the difference is just going to be in the details. You have to go quite far afield before you create something truly different - but then people get upset at defective garbage machines, murderous circuses, etc. because they are "oddballs."
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Post by Johnathan Molyneux on Jun 26, 2014 13:58:41 GMT
One reason I brought this up is because it does happen to me. I may never go to Gallifrey Base or read DWM again. My nephews' and nieces' friends find it strange that I am more enthused about the recovery of "The Enemy of the World" than I was about "Stolen Earth." Heck, I worked at a place where several co-workers used my preference for old DW as evidence that I was holding the company back technologically because I refused to change with the times. (In exchange for them staying and getting promoted, they used that as part of the grist of the case for firing me!) Obviously, the evolution of Doctor Who mirrors that of society. Look at the attitudes towards women, minorities, religions, etc. in the Hartnell stories compared to the McCoy era; then compare that to the Smith stories. It is eye-opening. When I watch the older stories, I have to remember the attitudes prevalent in the era they were filmed versus what I know now, or else some of them would offend me like no business. Obviously, the pacing of stories has sped up over time. Sometimes, that clears out what we now would consider dead space, but other times, we lose out on characterisation, background culture, etc. Similarly, the style, tone, and mood of the series has changed over time. The current trend I don't like is the lack of emphasis on the universe outside of Earth. I should point out that in an abstract sense, it is very hard to write truly different story. A new story "Invasion of Planet X" is likely going to seem like "The Dalek Invasion of Earth," "The Invasion," "The Claws of Axos," etc. in a macro sense; the difference is just going to be in the details. You have to go quite far afield before you create something truly different - but then people get upset at defective garbage machines, murderous circuses, etc. because they are "oddballs." The place where you worked sounds like a nightmare. I hope you found somewhere better. I have to say that with Gallifrey Base just like with the old Outpost Gallifrey I have tended to keep right out of any discussions about Doctor Who. I don't know if it's changed now but there used to be far too much drama. It's odd how a forum for a tv show where all the people posting like the show can cause so much aggro. I have mostly come across new series fans on Twitter, Facebook and such places and they have tended to be young female fans. Most have been quite complimentary about the classic stories they have seen. It's like even though it's tv episodes from a different time they still see it as important in creating their Doctor Who. Plus they all seem to like Tom Baker. Maybe I've been lucky but I've found it all quite charming. The essence of the Doctor appeals across generations. With DWM I find reading about the old series far more interesting than reading about the new but that's my bias I guess. I do think the magazine strikes a decent balance though. There's still plenty for those who prefer the classic series in it. What is it about DWM that makes you think you won't read it again?
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Post by Paul G on Jun 26, 2014 15:28:58 GMT
One reason I brought this up is because it does happen to me. I may never go to Gallifrey Base or read DWM again. My nephews' and nieces' friends find it strange that I am more enthused about the recovery of "The Enemy of the World" than I was about "Stolen Earth." Heck, I worked at a place where several co-workers used my preference for old DW as evidence that I was holding the company back technologically because I refused to change with the times. (In exchange for them staying and getting promoted, they used that as part of the grist of the case for firing me!) As a software developer myself I've got to say that's utterly ridiculous and, had they worked at the company where I work, would probably be grounds for disciplinary action against them. I tend to keep away from organised fandom & the big websites myself as I find the vocal minority spoil it for the silent majority. Some people don't understand: - the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion';
- how to communicate with other people; and
- that they're actually communicating with real, living, breathing people.
and the anonymity offered by the web gives them the perfect place to vent their bile with no real comeback. I realise this behaviour isn't exlusive to the 'Who' community, but it's where I've seen some of the worst examples. It's truly, truly pathetic.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Jun 26, 2014 21:47:58 GMT
you say that but in the William Hartnell story 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' the Tardis is covered in rubble blocking the door....and The Doctor & co discover a world dominated by Daleks who have captured humans and are forcing them to work as slaves in workgangs while years later in the Tom Baker story 'Destiny of The Daleks' the Tardis is covered in rubble blocking the door....and the Doctor & co discover a world dominated by Daleks who have captured humans and are forcing them to work as slaves in workgangs... In the William Hartnell story 'The Time Meddler' a renegade Timelord (The 'Meddling Monk') is using later era technology to try to alter the course of established Earth history (re the Viking invasion) & The Doctor outsmarts him...and duly 'nobbles' his Tardis at the end... while years later in the Peter Davison story 'The Kings Demons' The Doctor discovers that another renegade Timelord ('The Master') is using later era technology to try to alter the course of established Earth history (re King John & Magna Carta etc) & The Doctor outsmarts him....and duly 'nobbles' his Tardis at the end.. IN the William Hartnell story; 'The War Machines' an all powerful computer named WOTAN is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it.... while in The Jon Pertwee story; 'The Green Death' an all powerful computer named BOSS is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it... and in the Tom Baker story; 'The Face of Evil' an all powerful computer named XOANON (or something like that) is dominating those around it and forcing it's will to be done, until The Doctor's intervention overpowers it... Not quite so different a show then...? Yet if you look at how these shows are made & shot, the characterisations, the plotting beyond the basic premise of the stories, then they're radically different. Can you imagine a character like Leela appearing in 'The War Machines'? Look at 'The War Games' and 'Spearhead from Space'. They've scarcely anything in common at all, apart from a central character called the Doctor (who doesn't even look or act they same). In just about every conceivable way they're completely different shows. And they were made in the same year! Very true Paul,season 7 finally escaped from the past and put the show on a radical new footing,one which guaranteed it's success for years to come.It was a savage cost cutting exercise and a supreme gamble to exile the new Dr to Earth and it worked beautifully!The War Games to be seems to anticipate this change-it reminds me so much of the Summer,even though it was shot in B/W on a cold,overcast rubbish tip!
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 27, 2014 17:06:30 GMT
multiple posts - not done by me !
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 27, 2014 17:07:31 GMT
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 27, 2014 17:08:22 GMT
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 27, 2014 17:09:04 GMT
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 27, 2014 17:10:14 GMT
ah yes, season 7 that finally escaped from the past....that would be the same season that included David Whitaker's 'The Ambassadors of Death' written earlier for Patrick Troughton's second Doctor - yes ?
BBC had originally intended Ron Moody to portray a more comedic style Third Doctor....before later turning to Jon Pertwee
And Terrance Dicks certainly never felt (& has said) that the 'Earth exile' idea worked beautifully - he said it was just a cost cutting concept as the show went into colour...but was drastically cut back from 48 weeks a year to a six month series - as the very core of the show re Time/Space travel was (temporarily) dropped & making The Doctor into essentially another 'Quatermass' type figure (being duly pitted against a easy & cheaper to use 'Prof. Moriaty' foe figure of 'The Master' who featured in EVERY one of the 1971 season 8 Pertwee tales no less ! - something Barry Letts later openly admitted was FAR too much !)
The fact the 'Earth exile' idea was later scrapped proves it was essentially just a cost cutting short term measure...as Pertwee resumed Space/Time travelling & Tom Baker quickly did likewise...yes ? the show often featured a set concept revamped too - in William Hartnell's 'The War Machines' (1966) The Doctor helps the Earth authorities (including the military squad 'Orange Patrol') to fight an alien threat...
...as does Patrick Troughton's second Doctor in 'The Web of Fear' & 'The (Cybermen) Invasion' (the former featuring Col Lethbridge Stewart & latter featuring The Brigadier, Corporal Benton & UNIT)
...as does Jon Pertwee's Third Doctor in many stories during his era...
...as does Tom Baker's fourth Doctor in 'Terror of The Zygons'...
....while Peter Davison's fifth Doctor helps Earth's authorities (specifically a military squad) fight an alien threat in 'Earthshock'
...as does Sylvester McCoy's seventh Doctor assit Group Capt 'Chunky' Gilmore & his squad of military in 'Remembrance of The Daleks'
I don't buy all this 'radical new footing' talk at all...the biggest change was really that the show went into colour - MUCH that came later was actually retained from older days and duly re-utilised later on... (tho' some seventies onwards fans often choose not to see or believe it...presumably wanting 'their colour era' to be the real starting point for the show - tho' in truth it had long been a 'British institution' before Pertwee or Tom Baker ever were in it, hence two feature films had been made in 1965 and 1966, before even Troughton was The Doctor...)
An amazon character like Leela dressed in such a scantily clad outfit might not have been allowed earlier in the sixties (tho' Zoe wore some scanty/sexy outfits) ...however aggressive headstrong feisty females were certainly featured as the foes in 'Galaxy Four' during Hartnell's era, and Zoe even beats up the Karkus in 'The Mind Robber' - so such concepts of females capable of handling themselves WAS included in the show long before Leela's character was devised...(she was mostly meant to be a kind of 'Eliza Doolittle' figure to play off of Tom's 'Prof Henry Higgins' tutor but that idea largely was never followed up)
'The War Games' and 'Spearhead From Space' may differ as stories (should they not ?) but Patrick Troughton could just as easily have done 'Spearhead' & Pertwee could equally have done 'The War Games' - several times a tale has been written for one Doctor & done by another...(as with 'Ambassadors of Death')
Derrick Sherwin initially was intending to make 'Spearhead' as a comedy ! - hence shower & wheelchair escape scenes...Barry Letts turned it more towards Quinn Martin's 'Invaders' style - notably Hugh Burden's portrayal of Channing - compare it to 'Vikor' episode of 'The Invaders'- a SIXTIES sci fi show, (currently also showing again on Horror' channel)
later companions often were not as developed as earlier ones either besides those who left due to the odd falling out with producers that occurred throughout the show's history (Ian & Barbara's 'story' re their quest to get back home & their characters were more developed as opposed to some of the later ones - only Jo Grant, who was too 'twee' to be true, got a really poignant departure story - Liz Shaw just 'wasn't there anymore' while Sarah's later abrupt 'dumping' was dreadful ! & the first Romana Mary Tamm was also just 'gone' from the show...) so the improved characterisation aspect re the regulars is really arguable too....(Mark Strickson quit as his character Turlough went nowhere, often a 'loose end')
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jun 27, 2014 17:10:54 GMT
another multiple post for some odd reason (the forum acting up !)
I certainly never said I 'liked it' either !
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