why did material become lost?

[Deleted]

I saw something vague on the BBC site that few people foresaw the social and cultural value of tv and radio from the past but that's what puzzles me... why didn't more people see the value?

Can anyone help me in understanding?

[Patrick Coles]

I believe there are a number of reasons...

one is that many people back then felt much on Television - AND 'Pop' music too -  was a very 'throwaway' transitory  thing that might amuse/entertain today...but surely had NO great lasting cultural value ? (we were always being told at school in the sixties how the new 'pop music' thing just  WOULDN'T last like classical music - 'proper' music - and would be completely unlistenable after a few years...)

Even Ringo Starr talked about 'becoming a hairdresser' when the pop bubble burst in a year or so and it was proper jobs for everyone ! - so even a Beatle despite all their success still expected the 'groups thing' & 'pop' music to be just a passing phase...John Lennon's Auntie had told him 'you'll never make a living out of the guitar...'

and much on television was then similarly seen in a very; 'here today forgotten tomorrow' way...

even some actors then looked down on television...film was seen as highbrow and theatre was sancrosanct...but Television ??  - then very much largely seen as the 'poor relation' indeed ! 

this old attitude can be seen depicted in some TV & Radio comedy back then (Like 'Hancock's Half Hour' etc as the writers of those shows were quick to spot the attitude held by many, & commented on the snobbery attitude  etc)

TV such as sci fi & 'kids' shows (hence 'Doctor Who') was seen by many as not being 'highbrow' enough to have any great art value....and there was even talk that IF you watched all the episodes of a serial like 'Dr.Who' all put together it wouldn't hold up as a complete story at all...(yeah !)

HOW these (daft) ideas were arrived at I'm not sure - part of it was the more 'Patrician' attitude present in society back then of 'elders know better' (probably a hang over from Victorian & colonial days in Britain then in the mid to late 50's still  recovering from WW2) as many 'elders' talked down to younger people (you can see something of that depicted in say early 'Coronation Street' where the likes of characters such as; 'Albert Tatlock' or 'Ena Sharples' talk DOWN to younger adults 'Ken Barlow' & 'Elsie Tanner' in the Rovers Return etc)
- so anything that younger people were into often drew a scornful disapproving stance from some (not all) elders or the very 'conservative' types...

there is a great example of this attitude circa 1967 held by BBC (shown in their 'Sounds of the Sixties' series) where know all 'expert' Hans Keller confidently dismisses the music made by Pink Floyd as NOT having any true artistic merit or any lasting value....(How many albums did PF go on to sell....? how many years was 'Dark Side of The Moon' in the album charts...?)

Ray Davies of The Kinks 'observed', questioned,  & commented alot of these very 'jumped up' social attitudes prevalent in British society  on sixties Kinks albums such as; 'The Village Green Preservation Society' & 'Arthur or The Decline & Fall of The British Empire' plus 'Lola V Powerman and The Moneygoround'  - these where the core attitudes that deemed things such as the content of modern Television shows were in essence very 'throwaway' or at best not likely to ever be deemed viewable in the future...

another reason much of the older TV material got dumped was the dreaded "NOT in colour" excuse...which some younger adults also WERE guilty of having an attitude of by the seventies in simply assuming  anything older in b/w must be just 'dated' and thus disposable....indeed once colour TV was here some felt b/w was simply of no use or interest to ANYBODY anymore - only those more enlightened 'collector' type folk stuck with it...

in the 90's cable channels such as BRAVO were very good initially at still screening b/w shows (early 'The Saint', 'Danger Man', 'Scotland Yard' etc)...but after a takeover they went 'colour only'

BBC had the 'colour TV licence' issue around their necks that made them lean more towards colour only (just odd shows such as 'Phil Silvers Show' & later reruns of the Steed/Emma 'Avengers' 1965 season plus for a time 'The Fugitive' & 'The Untouchables' were shows in b/w BBC ever screened in later years)

ITV also dumped b/w TV in the 80's (I think it was) with only Channel Four screening westerns; 'Wagon Train' & 'Rawhide' plus early Irwin Allen shows first seasons ('Voyage..' & 'Lost in Space') in the 80's in b/w

so in a non monochrome era many in TV circles discarded b/w entirely....BBC were in fact buring their 'lost' ('junked' actually) shows like old Dr.Who while you NEVER see b/w seasons of 'The Saint' (75 odd episodes !) or 'Danger Man', or 'The Man From UNCLE' (1964-65 first - and BEST season) on UK TV anymore....(shame !)

also a 'fashion' and 'PC' angle exists which halts some vintage television these days too - not dated clothing but the fact alot of older society habits such as smoking etc, is depicted in older television (England's World Cup footballer  Captain Bobby Moore use to; 'look in at the local' in a TV commercial for Pubs !)
- plus some  attitudes prevailed then that some are far too scared to depict now in a modern  'PC' world of all too easily frightened TV Execs who prefer everyone to think they  live in a make believe more sanitised 'correct' TV world...(about as real as no one ever swearing in 'Eastenders' etc !)

at least some of the ITV b/w material (tho' not all by any means ) survives while BBC have even lost COLOUR shows too...!

only in latter years have more people come around to the thinking of the more enlightened bunch who saw STRONG TV for what it was, regardless of age, style, or lack of colour...hence the hunt for 'lost' TV episodes (b/w and colour) and the issue of all these DVD sets of classic TV shows from a bygone era...

this is at least part of why so much classic TV was 'lost' (often 'destroyed' in truth)

some 'TV collectors' (just like all those train enthusiasts who bothered to buy expensive colour film & go out and capture history by filming trains & stations, buses,  etc ) have saved or hunted out historical TV material...and to them we owe a great debt of thanks !


one interesting point is that anyone who develops an interest in subjects and aquires knowledge & builds collections etc are often ridiculed or even pilloried - Train enthusiasts were labelled as 'Trainspotters' & seen as being  'Geeks' etc
- while in truth many of these enthusiasts were preserving history...

likewise 'collectors' now get called; 'HOARDERS' - a term of derision with some (note very cheapo) TV shows now devoted to making them ALL out to have mental illnesses & needing their 'experts' to save them from themselves' etc...

yet these 'collectors' (The Late Great Bob Monkhouse being a prime example) have in fact preserved priceless material for future generations to enjoy & learn from (as many writers & newspapermen did building Libraries in the past etc)

curious how the building up of collections & retaining knowledge seems to frighten some in society to trying to openly discourage it by calling such enthusiasts; 'Geeks' or 'Oddballs' & 'being in need of help' etc...

hope this helps !

[RWels]

Not sure if the BBC scores worse than ITV/others. Didn't they all loose colour and b/w material?

Reverse the question first. Think of TV as some sort of special stage play. Initially this was very true as many shows went out live. If a play or musical ends its run, then you can no longer see it.
So start with that. Then, Equity, the actors' union, says you can't repeat shows past a certain point. And no-one abroad wants to buy it. It's the end of the road.
Anything that's old and nostalgic first HAS to go through a phase where it's yesterday's news. And items have to survive that period. This is true for TV, films, paintings, who knows, if you store your Pentium 3 long enough it might eventually make a nice museum piece in 50 years.

That said, basically it was a mistake to destroy so much. Any copies on film could not be recycled anyway. Perhaps this mistake would not have been made if more people had known about it. Perhaps if they had only destroyed the shows we don't care about, it would be different. But that's hindsight.

[Ray Langstone (was saintsray)]

I maintain that as a percentage, ITV got rid of more material in the first 25 years of direct competition than the BBC.

[Patrick Coles]

Yeah it's so easy to see things clearer with the benefit of hindsight...!

Legal issues re payments of residues etc, plus some artists/writers objecting to use of their older works are also factors that come into play re repeats, and often these and other factors keep a show out of the public eye, leading to it being largely forgotten...

Much American b/w TV survives and alot of the ITC material ITV screened survives too, often it's the 'in house' productions done on videotape that has been 'junked' or 'lost'

another issue is the fact they often 'taped over' material, plus the question of storage facilities which for old b/w material (then - and now - largely seen as unrepeatable) which all costs...

writers Galton & Simpson ('Hancock', 'Steptoe') once commented on how while drama was seen as being very important as a item of art and culture, comedy was just 'looked down on' (that 'snooty attitude' again) thus comedy often was never given any great creedence as being a item of art / culture and was often not archived ...
(Tony Hancock had largely gone out of style by the time he died in 1968...yet years later he was hailed as a comedy genius, other artists in all fields have had similar phases going in and out of style)

[brianfretwell]

There is also the lack of communication factor. The producer of "Ace of Wands" said on the DVD that at Thames programme tapes had to be cleared with the producer to be wiped. If the producer wasn't in the office they assumed a yes and wiped them. With the BBC storage expenses could see Worldwide scrapping programmes thinking the main BBC held them and later vice versa and if they existed both VT and film recordings of the same show could be lost.

[Simon Smith]

You also need to understand the way the BBC, in particular, works. It was set up as a non-commercial public service. Everything is funded by public money. Thus the budget would have been limited. Even if the BBC had wanted to keep every videotaped show ever, they had neither the money nor the storage space to do so.

Then there's the fact that it's not "the BBC". It was three separate departments, each with their own concerns and priorities. BBC Programming had to make new shows on time and on budget, and had no claim to the recorded material once it was made.(In fact attempts by certain people to get personal copies of shows they had worked on were turned down). BBC Engineering were in charge of electrical equipment and videotapes. They had limited space and a limited budget. They were responsible for making sure there were sufficient blank tapes for new programming. However, if there wasn't money, the only solution was to wipe existing tapes for reuse. And they had limited storage space. BBC Enterprises were the commercial arm. They would only make copies of shows that they could legally sell, and had sales potential. All episodes had "sales windows", after which they could no longer legally be sold. And once a particular episode had been sold to various countries, and its sales window had closed, there was no reason for Enterprises to retain a copy of it. Especially after harsher Equity-forced laws being added, to say nothing of the limited storage space, and potential fire hazards.

[Christopher Perry]

I think it's a little unfair to lump all of ITV together Ray. They were separate companies. Some like ABC and AR kept huge amounts until their demise, and they junked because no one wanted them.

Granada has kept a huge amount, as has LWT and YTV. Thames has kept a huge amount.

Some like Southern and Westward were very quick to re-use tape and had no reason to make sales prints. People in Africa did not want to buy old editions of Westward Diary.

ATV were very slaphdash.

The real crimes for me are the TVS and BSB archives. By then people should have known better. It should have been offered to the NFA.

[Ray Langstone (was saintsray)]

I agree with you CP, as regards Granada, YTV, LWT, and also Anglia and Westward have done quite well, on the whole.

I also agree with you on the fact TVS and BSB's erasings being criminal.

ATV'S junking was, I feel quite bad - particularly the Polygram junkings which could have been easily avoided - - and in addition there are many missing shows from the early Thames period) although a DRASTIC improvement from 1970 or so onward), Southern, STV and Grampian.

I was generalizing - but my point is still valid, I feel, when one takes account of regional programmes and 'minority interest' shows where the BBC have kept more than your average ITV broadcaster. There is next to nothing left of Teledu Cymru (even though there output was very small and I MAY have a find to announce soon) and TWW.

I have little idea what the archives of Channel Television, Border Television and Tyne Tees are like, unfortunately, when it comes to regional programming.

[Richard Marple]

Didn't some of the TVS archive end up being shipped over to America, or was that just their masters of Fraggle Rock?

[Deleted]

It depends on what type of programming you're talking about to a large degree but - disregarding Rediffusion and ABC - I maintain that more has been kept / has managed to survive of the main drama / comedy output of the big ITV companies from the 1960s / 70s (which is largely what is being referred to here) than the BBC. Many of these series have been released by Network. I don't believe though that as many equivalent BBC series could be released complete or near complete.

[Christopher Perry]

Any ideas why our original poster has left the forum?

[chrisjbrady]

Apr 3, 2014 19:18:22 GMT Patrick Coles said:

likewise 'collectors' now get called; 'HOARDERS' - a term of derision with some (note very cheapo) TV shows now devoted to making them ALL out to have mental illnesses & needing their 'experts' to save them from themselves' etc...

Huh - I got called a HOARDER by Chris Perry because he objected to me stating that the 'lost' audio and video programmes that I have from home-taping will not be returned to the sources nor released into the public domain. But the old recordings (60s/70s) that I have have been offered back to the BBC and the National Sound Archives - but my offer(s) were first of all ignored, and then refused with the utmost indifference. Snobbish or what - likely because the programmes were on folk music and song during the definitive era of the folk revival in the 1960s. BTW BBC Transcription discs of this genre are now fetching £100 plus on eBay.

Mr. Perry also objected to my referencing the concept of torrent sites for peer-2-peer sharing. Yet he failed to recognise that one of the largest torrent sites is at *REFERENCE REMOVED BY MODERATOR*. This is 100% legit. but is banned from being discussed (in his forums).

I do know of at least one private torrent site that has lots of 'lost' home-taped radio and t.v. programmes that he and the black-hole of Kaleidoscope will never get to access. The folks of that site firmly believe that 'lost' episodes should be in the public domain not mouldering away in some inaccessible archives.

Remember the Twitter pics of that lost can of BBC Enterprise Morecambe & Wise footage? The footage was beyond saving - so the UK experts opined. However they failed to consult with the LOC or folks in the US who could well have helped. I wonder how many other films are in that condition? Even today archives cannot look after their holdings properly.

[Rob Moss]

Chris,

You may think that torrent sites are 100% legit, and indeed, for some purposes they are, but in the context of sharing copyright material, such as radio programmes, WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT OWNER, then I'm afraid you are entirely mistaken.

The "folks of that site" may well believe that material should be seen by as many people as possible (indeed, I'm sure most of us here agree), but that doesn't legitimise it. And, just out of interest, how can you claim that this material is "in the public domain", if it's a private torrent site..?

How people choose to use or not use torrent sites is up to them, but most archive TV forums and organisations, MEF and Kaleidoscope included, can't be seen to condone or encourage their use, which is why links or discussion of content is not tolerated.

Finally, those Folk programmes you have. Are you serious about wanting to have them returned..? It's just that I seem to remember you threatening to destroy them, and I'm having difficulty reconciling that with your description of Kaleidoscope as a "black hole". If you are serious about getting them returned, and if the "hoarder" label really doesn't apply to you, then let someone on this forum help you.

Rob

[RWels]

Apr 7, 2014 12:24:16 GMT chrisjbrady said:

Apr 3, 2014 19:18:22 GMT Patrick Coles said:

likewise 'collectors' now get called; 'HOARDERS' - a term of derision with some (note very cheapo) TV shows now devoted to making them ALL out to have mental illnesses & needing their 'experts' to save them from themselves' etc...

Huh - I got called a HOARDER by Chris Perry because he objected to me stating that the 'lost' audio and video programmes that I have from home-taping will not be returned to the sources nor released into the public domain. But the old recordings (60s/70s) that I have have been offered back to the BBC and the National Sound Archives - but my offer(s) were first of all ignored, and then refused with the utmost indifference. Snobbish or what - likely because the programmes were on folk music and song during the definitive era of the folk revival in the 1960s. BTW BBC Transcription discs of this genre are now fetching £100 plus on eBay.

Mr. Perry also objected to my referencing the concept of torrent sites for peer-2-peer sharing. Yet he failed to recognise that one of the largest torrent sites is at REFERENCE REMOVED BY MODERATOR. This is 100% legit. but is banned from being discussed (in his forums).

I do know of at least one private torrent site that has lots of 'lost' home-taped radio and t.v. programmes that he and the black-hole of Kaleidoscope will never get to access. The folks of that site firmly believe that 'lost' episodes should be in the public domain not mouldering away in some inaccessible archives.

Remember the Twitter pics of that lost can of BBC Enterprise Morecambe & Wise footage? The footage was beyond saving - so the UK experts opined. However they failed to consult with the LOC or folks in the US who could well have helped. I wonder how many other films are in that condition? Even today archives cannot look after their holdings properly.

If I understand your story well, then I cannot agree with you even though I understand how you feel.
For one, we have to face the fact that copyrights exist and will probably be around for some time to come. You can't blame KAL or any volunteer for that but it means that if they want to do anything official then they'll have to play by those rules.
Oh yes, it would be much better if there was a way to see the recoveries, so it would be less of a one way traffic, and we could see what it is all for. But this is simply legally out of reach. They do arrange screenings though.

But making stuff PD COULD also result in companies really not caring anymore to save or restore or release material like that M&W episode. Would Phil Morris still go on a search in Africa if no-one was paying? We don't know.

This is the first time I have heard it said that we can't mention archive.org and I am not sure if this is so? I have no idea if or how they check, but its content is officially PD, so I don't see why it should be a problem.

It IS a pity to hear that your offers were refused. I am sure that must happen from time to time, that the people answering many questions then don't recognise a genuinely useful call. A lot of people are not really paying attention. Then again, perhaps they get a lot of bogus or completely useless offers.