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Post by johnforbes on Jan 16, 2014 16:27:05 GMT
GIBRALTAR
With the find of another EOTW 6 we can now really begin to lower the likely place all these Taiwan prints are coming from, and I honestly believe they are all from the same source now.
EOTW was only ever sold to Australia, HK, Singapore, NZ, Gibraltar, Zambia, Nigeria.
However, The HK, Singapore and Nigeria print are ALL THE SAME PRINT from bicycling records and we have this print from PM.
Australia returned it with the crate in 1975.
Zambia, it is assumed, either junked/kept its Troughtons or sent them back.
NZ assumed destroyed in 1974
This leaves us with GIBRALTAR.
A check of Broadwcast reveals that Gibraltar bought.
UU The Mind Robber VV The Invasion WW The Krotons XX The Seeds of Death YY The Space Pirates ZZ The War Games NN The Abominable Snowmen OO The Ice Warriors PP The Enemy of the World QQ The Web of Fear RR Fury from the Deep SS The Wheel in Space TT The Dominators
A An Unearthly Child B The Daleks C Inside the Spaceship D Marco Polo E The Keys of Marinus F The Aztecs G The Sensorites H The Reign of Terror J Planet of Giants K The Dalek Invasion of Earth L The Rescue M The Romans N The Web Planet P The Crusade Q The Space Museum R The Chase S The Time Meddler
It is assumed Aden, receieved the first 11 Hartnells.
The rest inc the Troughtons are assumed to have been junked/returned.
However even according to Broadwcast, it is stated that the TAS 2 and WIS 3 prints "could" be the ones given to Gibraltar.
All of the eps recovered so far, according to the above lists, were shown in Gibraltar. While crucially, whilst Zambia has always been thought of as a good recovery source, Zambia never screened Krotons or Dominators. And NZ never screened some of the Taiwan finds.
So, for the new Marinus 6 find, if it is indeed Gibraltar which is the culprit, it would seem that Aden did not receive the prints from there and were given new ones or from a different source.
From what we have seen of Taiwan recoveries so far, indicates the strong possibility that Gibraltar didn't junk/send back any of its prints, and they in fact, possibly all, fell into the hands of private collectors.
This therefore gives us the following stories which may have missing eps in Taiwan
Marco Polo 1-7 Reign of Terror 4, 5 Crusade 2, 4 Invasion 1, 4 Wheel in Space 1, 2, 4, 5 Ice Warriors 2, 3 Space Pirates 1, 3-6 Abominable Snowmen 1, 3-6 Fury 1-6 Web of Fear 3
I would now be EXTREMELY surprised if none of these turned up in Taiwan in the coming weeks/months.
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 16, 2014 16:34:17 GMT
GIBRALTAR With the find of another EOTW 6 we can now really begin to lower the likely place all these Taiwan prints are coming from, and I honestly believe they are all from the same source now. EOTW was only ever sold to Australia, HK, Singapore, NZ, Gibraltar, Zambia, Nigeria. However, The HK, Singapore and Nigeria print are ALL THE SAME PRINT from bicycling records and we have this print from PM. Australia returned it with the crate in 1975. Zambia, it is assumed, either junked/kept its Troughtons or sent them back. NZ assumed destroyed in 1974 This leaves us with GIBRALTAR. A check of Broadwcast reveals that Gibraltar bought. UU The Mind Robber VV The Invasion WW The Krotons XX The Seeds of Death YY The Space Pirates ZZ The War Games NN The Abominable Snowmen OO The Ice Warriors PP The Enemy of the World QQ The Web of Fear RR Fury from the Deep SS The Wheel in Space TT The Dominators A An Unearthly Child B The Daleks C Inside the Spaceship D Marco Polo E The Keys of Marinus F The Aztecs G The Sensorites H The Reign of Terror J Planet of Giants K The Dalek Invasion of Earth L The Rescue M The Romans N The Web Planet P The Crusade Q The Space Museum R The Chase S The Time Meddler It is assumed Aden, receieved the first 11 Hartnells. The rest inc the Troughtons are assumed to have been junked/returned. However even according to Broadwcast, it is stated that the TAS 2 and WIS 3 prints "could" be the ones given to Gibraltar. All of the eps recovered so far, according to the above lists, were shown in Gibraltar. While crucially, whilst Zambia has always been thought of as a good recovery source, Zambia never screened Krotons or Dominators. And NZ never screened some of the Taiwan finds. So, for the new Marinus 6 find, if it is indeed Gibraltar which is the culprit, it would seem that Aden did not receive the prints from there and were given new ones or from a different source. From what we have seen of Taiwan recoveries so far, indicates the strong possibility that Gibraltar didn't junk/send back any of its prints, and they in fact, possibly all, fell into the hands of private collectors. This therefore gives us the following stories which may have missing eps in Taiwan Marco Polo 1-7 Reign of Terror 4, 5 Crusade 2, 4 Invasion 1, 4 Wheel in Space 1, 2, 4, 5 Ice Warriors 2, 3 Space Pirates 1, 3-6 Abominable Snowmen 1, 3-6 Fury 1-6 Web of Fear 3 I would now be EXTREMELY surprised if none of these turned up in Taiwan in the coming weeks/months. And since Gibraltar is a naval port would tie in with the military theme.
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Post by Alex Wilson on Jan 16, 2014 16:52:18 GMT
I don't mean to be pedantic, but when you list serial C as "Inside the Spaceship", do you mean "The Edge of Destruction"?
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 16, 2014 16:54:24 GMT
I don't mean to be pedantic, but when you list serial C as "Inside the Spaceship", do you mean "The Edge of Destruction"? Yes
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 16, 2014 17:53:50 GMT
Gibraltar is a possibility, but my money's on them being supplied by the ABC for the Aussie troops serving in Asia, then being left behind and ending up in Taiwan when the troops departed Vietnam in 1971.
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Post by johnforbes on Jan 16, 2014 18:06:24 GMT
@ Jon Whilst yours is also a possibility too, the fact that Marinus 6 has apparently turned up in and amongst this lot would mean that the Aussies had been copying whole stories for the troops for quite a number of years. (They surely wouldn't copy random eps) And surely they would have needed the BBC's permission to copy them for troop screening ? Also, if it were for troops, wouldn't ABC have at some point asked for them back ? Since my money is on Gibraltar, I'm sure that one of us is spot on
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Post by shellyharman67 on Jan 16, 2014 18:11:19 GMT
Gibraltar is a possibility, but my money's on them being supplied by the ABC for the Aussie troops serving in Asia, then being left behind and ending up in Taiwan when the troops departed Vietnam in 1971. Australian troops were out of vietnam in 65 i think.Thats when the yanks went in.
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Post by davidbevans on Jan 16, 2014 18:50:42 GMT
The withdrawal of Australia's forces from South Vietnam began in November 1970 when 8 RAR completed its tour of duty and was not replaced. A phased withdrawal followed, and by 11 January 1973 Australian involvement in hostilities in Vietnam had ceased. Nevertheless, Australian troops from the Australian Embassy Platoon remained deployed in the country until 1 July 1973,and Australian forces were deployed briefly in April 1975, during the fall of Saigon, to evacuate personnel from the Australian embassy
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 16, 2014 19:00:23 GMT
Hmmmm... So the films might have been sent over for the benefit of Embassy staff rather than troops...
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Post by scotttelfer on Jan 16, 2014 20:07:36 GMT
That's fair enough, but what about Ambassadors of Death? Did Gibraltar purchase it as well? The Pertwee stuff needs to be considered as well.
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Post by Will Weller on Jan 16, 2014 21:23:35 GMT
GIBRALTAR With the find of another EOTW 6 we can now really begin to lower the likely place all these Taiwan prints are coming from, and I honestly believe they are all from the same source now. EOTW was only ever sold to Australia, HK, Singapore, NZ, Gibraltar, Zambia, Nigeria. However, The HK, Singapore and Nigeria print are ALL THE SAME PRINT from bicycling records and we have this print from PM. Australia returned it with the crate in 1975. Zambia, it is assumed, either junked/kept its Troughtons or sent them back. NZ assumed destroyed in 1974 This leaves us with GIBRALTAR. A check of Broadwcast reveals that Gibraltar bought. UU The Mind Robber VV The Invasion WW The Krotons XX The Seeds of Death YY The Space Pirates ZZ The War Games NN The Abominable Snowmen OO The Ice Warriors PP The Enemy of the World QQ The Web of Fear RR Fury from the Deep SS The Wheel in Space TT The Dominators A An Unearthly Child B The Daleks C Inside the Spaceship D Marco Polo E The Keys of Marinus F The Aztecs G The Sensorites H The Reign of Terror J Planet of Giants K The Dalek Invasion of Earth L The Rescue M The Romans N The Web Planet P The Crusade Q The Space Museum R The Chase S The Time Meddler It is assumed Aden, receieved the first 11 Hartnells. The rest inc the Troughtons are assumed to have been junked/returned. However even according to Broadwcast, it is stated that the TAS 2 and WIS 3 prints "could" be the ones given to Gibraltar. All of the eps recovered so far, according to the above lists, were shown in Gibraltar. While crucially, whilst Zambia has always been thought of as a good recovery source, Zambia never screened Krotons or Dominators. And NZ never screened some of the Taiwan finds. So, for the new Marinus 6 find, if it is indeed Gibraltar which is the culprit, it would seem that Aden did not receive the prints from there and were given new ones or from a different source. From what we have seen of Taiwan recoveries so far, indicates the strong possibility that Gibraltar didn't junk/send back any of its prints, and they in fact, possibly all, fell into the hands of private collectors. This therefore gives us the following stories which may have missing eps in Taiwan Marco Polo 1-7 Reign of Terror 4, 5 Crusade 2, 4 Invasion 1, 4 Wheel in Space 1, 2, 4, 5 Ice Warriors 2, 3 Space Pirates 1, 3-6 Abominable Snowmen 1, 3-6 Fury 1-6 Web of Fear 3 I would now be EXTREMELY surprised if none of these turned up in Taiwan in the coming weeks/months. This is very interesting information. All we can do is hope for the best that something is found, and that the still large number 97 will be bought down even more.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jan 16, 2014 21:45:49 GMT
.... this lot would mean that the Aussies had been copying whole stories for the troops for quite a number of years. (They surely wouldn't copy random eps) And surely they would have needed the BBC's permission to copy them for troop screening ? Also, if it were for troops, wouldn't ABC have at some point asked for them back ?. The prints - including perhaps the odd orphaned episode? - could have been sent over in the early 70s, being 'spare' copies they had lying around, rather than being struck off especially for use overseas from 1965 onwards. And the ABC's remit might have included servicemen and embassies overseas, and therefore didn't need permission from the BBC.
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Post by Paul Edwards on Jan 16, 2014 22:07:10 GMT
.... this lot would mean that the Aussies had been copying whole stories for the troops for quite a number of years. (They surely wouldn't copy random eps) And surely they would have needed the BBC's permission to copy them for troop screening ? Also, if it were for troops, wouldn't ABC have at some point asked for them back ?. The prints - including perhaps the odd orphaned episode? - could have been sent over in the early 70s, being 'spare' copies they had lying around, rather than being struck off especially for use overseas from 1965 onwards. And the ABC's remit might have included servicemen and embassies overseas, and therefore didn't need permission from the BBC. At the risk of fanning something here... Back in the 1970s when I was a young kid, we lived a few houses up from a couple of guys who worked for the ABC. There would often be OB vans etc at their place. I was speaking with my father about this earlier this week, in the context of a discussion on where the old neighbours are now, etxc. Anyway, my father said that in the 70s when I was very young, he would sometimes pop down to this house, as they were able to provide "informal repeats" of shows that folks may have missed on the ABC (VCRs not widely available in Oz as a consumer device until the early 1980s) -- through screening 16mm films (My father was 16mm projectionist as a second job, so he would have been across the format quite accurately). Now, I've no idea if any Doctor Who was screened here, nor whether these were prints that were borrowed and returned, or copies of prints. My father didn't recall any labels on cans or anything like that, or if this happened frequently or just once in a blue moon. This is 40 years ago now... In summary: Facts: ABC guys lived down the road from me. Sometimes they screened films belonging to the ABC as informal repeats for neighbours who may have missed the screening of a show. Speculation: anything else
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Post by Rowan Abblitt on Jan 16, 2014 22:16:49 GMT
GIBRALTAR A check of Broadwcast reveals that Gibraltar bought. UU The Mind Robber VV The Invasion WW The Krotons XX The Seeds of Death YY The Space Pirates ZZ The War Games NN The Abominable Snowmen OO The Ice Warriors PP The Enemy of the World QQ The Web of Fear RR Fury from the Deep SS The Wheel in Space TT The Dominators A An Unearthly Child B The Daleks C Inside the Spaceship D Marco Polo E The Keys of Marinus F The Aztecs G The Sensorites H The Reign of Terror J Planet of Giants K The Dalek Invasion of Earth L The Rescue M The Romans N The Web Planet P The Crusade Q The Space Museum R The Chase S The Time Meddler This therefore gives us the following stories which may have missing eps in Taiwan Marco Polo 1-7 Reign of Terror 4, 5 Crusade 2, 4 Invasion 1, 4 Wheel in Space 1, 2, 4, 5 Ice Warriors 2, 3 Space Pirates 1, 3-6 Abominable Snowmen 1, 3-6 Fury 1-6 Web of Fear 3 I would now be EXTREMELY surprised if none of these turned up in Taiwan in the coming weeks/months. Looking at that list, isn't it a little bit more likely that more duplicates will be found? The number of existing to missing seems a little bit bigger to me. This is still a very promising lead though
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Post by Marty Schultz on Jan 16, 2014 22:20:53 GMT
I'm a colleague of an ABC tape op of the 60s - 80s. I've mentioned some of this before. He categorically states that the microwave was too expensive to use for serials - the 16mm was transferred to quad tapes and couriered about OZ. There are several possibilities of where the tapes ended up. Obviously these were also probably wiped. However two of the destinations of where he reckons they could have ended up was - Western Australia or after 71 - Darwin. IIRC -Two of our major ports in the Vietnam conflict. Could it be possible that ABC Perth did a transfer of the quad tapes back to 16mm? Should we be looking at TX dates etc in these areas? EDIT - so what I'm suggesting is a one or two time transferral from a 'stockpile' as opposed to a weekly transferral etc - again it's pure speculation until the prints are viewed.
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