|
Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 3, 2013 9:44:10 GMT
Just imagine Michael Grade being in key position over shows such as; 'The Prisoner' etc....) You mean he didn't have a hand in that recent AMC thing with Caviezel and McKellen?
|
|
|
Post by scotttelfer on Dec 3, 2013 13:10:41 GMT
Re Scott's point - that was not long before Grade 'jumped ship' and went over to Channel Four, which tells us everything about him ! What was Terrance Dicks saying about 'not fit for purpose...' ? Grade's OWN opinions were totally irrelavent and should not have been a factor in what programmes were or were not commissioned, the BBC were owned by the public who clearly DID enjoy Dr.Who as it had retained a core audience over decades...thus whatever the controller may or may not have liked or watched personally should not have ever come into the question at all - should it ? One tends to think Grade was very probably only in position thanks to his family connections (could he really be related to Lord Lew Grade ? - just imagine Michael Grade being in key position over shows such as Patrick McGoohan's show; 'The Prisoner' etc....) Well this is also the same man who bought Neighbours because his daughter liked it. As I said it wasn't just him but he knew full well what he was doing. Indeed I remember a story Russell T Davies told about meeting Mr Grade on one occasion in 1987, he was giving a lecture or something along those lines and was talking about scheduling shows and how it was an important part of his job. As a result Mr Davies questioned him about why he was messing around with Doctor Who if it was so important to a show's success as he claimed. His response was just one rather haunting word... "Suicide". He certainly wasn't alone amongst high powered BBC executives who were fed up with the show, but he was certainly the public face of the campaign against it if not the ringleader of the whole operation.
|
|
|
Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 3, 2013 16:35:50 GMT
Grade also wanted 'wall to wall' Wogan inflicting upon us all Mr. Wogan's endless trivialising of everything and his eternal 'interviewing himself' while a guest sat and listened in on us each weekday night, it was also,of course, 'mega cheapo' television...
|
|
|
Post by Richard Marple on Dec 3, 2013 17:43:12 GMT
IIRC the BBC were under the threat of being privatised, so the top brass had to see seen to be clearing out the "dead wood".
It's a shame Terry Wogan & Russell Harty coudn't have shared the mid evening chat show slot, I liked Harty when it was on 1983-4ish.
Supposedly there were plans to show Wogan 5 times a week, which would have been a stretch for most hosts to do.
|
|
|
Post by scotttelfer on Dec 3, 2013 17:46:07 GMT
Grade also wanted 'wall to wall' Wogan inflicting upon us all Mr. Wogan's endless trivialising of everything and his eternal 'interviewing himself' while a guest sat and listened in on us each weekday night, it was also,of course, 'mega cheapo' television... Poor guests, I wouldn't wish anyone to have that happen to them. Worst thing is many people are willing to let him get away with it, who can forget the incident with the Eurovision entry in 2007? I can hardly blame Fearne Cotton for never going back. Coincidently she has a cousin twice removed who was involved with Mr Grade's scheme against Doctor Who, funny how these things loop back on themselves isn't it?
|
|
|
Post by Paul McDermott on Dec 4, 2013 0:35:13 GMT
And yep, quite fond of Peladon myself. Just wish the rulers there seemed a little more competent than the show tended to suggest. Of course, perhaps the throne is a joke job, like President Of The Galaxy in the Hitch Hiker series. In which case, no problem... I got the impression that they were rather inexperienced at ruling at the time that The Doctor arrived. Of course it could have been a joke job-The Chancellor seemed to be the real power in both cases. Well, it might explain Curse - but Monster? Couldn't Thalira have received a correspondence course or two as a present growing up, or something? It's like the Pels figure it doesn't matter - that bloke who passed himself off as the Earth Ambassador will fix any little crisis that should come up. A strong but anxious leader who goofs seems a little more varied than the helpless and outwitted monarch we got twice. Mind you, if they put Alpha Centauri in charge next time, say a marriage to solidify ties in the Galactic Federation, it'd at least be funnier! Maybe it's all the trisilicate dust in the air, having strange influence on the upper faculties. Why else refer to passageways everyone knows of as "secret"?
|
|
|
Post by scotttelfer on Dec 4, 2013 8:48:52 GMT
What you need to remember though is that Michael Grade wanted rid of it. He didn't care how good or bad it was, he hated it. Every last bit of the show's downfall was staged by him (and a few others who rather sensibly never let their names go public, although there are one or two that have gotten out since). Regardless of any improvement in quality the show would have been cancelled, because he hated it. Well that's a good point, but it was a cash cow in the 1980's too and it was still axed. I can only say that the BBC doesn't always seem to work logically at times. And, hopefully, a future executive won't come along and axe the program again due to their feelings about it. I think we actually came fairly close in the past few years with Danny Cohen. He didn't hate the show so much but he didn't like the idea of Steven Moffat being in charge of two hit shows on his channel at the same time. Indeed, one of the first things he did in the job was release a press statement saying they delayed Doctor Who to be split over 2012/13 on the grounds that Moffat needed to spend more time with his family because he was a terrible father. Anybody want to try and tell us that isn't a man with an agenda?
|
|
|
Post by Alan Jeffries on Dec 4, 2013 12:43:48 GMT
Towards the end of its run, I think classic Who suffered from a number of factors. I was beginning to become a dinosaur of a programme. The TV landscape was changing and fewer people wanted to watch a single story over 4 weeks. Dramas were just starting to be stripped over a couple of nights, freeing up viewers for whatever they wanted to do. It didn't sit well in this brave new world and no-one seemed to know what to do with the show. It has been well documented that 'upstairs' at the BBC wanted the show finished off. It was more and more marginalised, with shifting the showings to weekdays and severely curtailing the season run. It's my understanding that when Who was 'rested' the money saved went into the set up for Eastenders. If that is true or an Urban Myth, I cannot say. But it was hated by Michael Grade (and still is judging by the response he gave in the House of Lords recently). So the show was on the ropes. The longest serving actor was quitting and a new producer put in place. JNT, whatever people think of him - and some are very vocal. Someone even threatened to shoot him in one of the magazines of the time! But he was not totally to blame. I reckon he was the stooge that got the blame. he wanted to leave, but was not allowed to. Why put in a new team on a show that they wanted axed?Because of this, his career was ruined. He went down with the show he loved when it was pitched against the big hitting Coronation Street. Which brings us back to the 'upstairs' at the BBC. And finally the viewers. The fickle viewers. 'Oh this again? Let's have something new.'
And now up to date. I think that when Tennant was leaving the show was effectively off for a year. That I feel was a good move and should be repeated when Capaldi leaves. Just to make let it breath and renew again. It may be at the height of it's game now, but let's not forget that Only Fools was in the same position until it was flogged to death. I really don't Who to go through the same painful death throes.
Alan
|
|
|
Post by Andrew Knight on Dec 4, 2013 12:59:37 GMT
It may be at the height of it's game now, but let's not forget that Only Fools was in the same position until it was flogged to death. I really don't Who to go through the same painful death throes. Alan Only Fools was written by one man and made the cardinal error of passing beyond it's natural end (the scene when the three men walk into the sunset and Del says 'we could be billionaires'). Doctor Who is written by tons of people and has no natural end (damn you Bob Holmes!). I actually came on to this thread to share that I've had some amazing, vivid dreams of Capaldi as The Doctor. The best one was of death leading Matt Smith through a graveyard to an open coffin, where a faceless body lay. Death threw Smith on top of the body, they merged and regenerated into Capaldi screaming gibberish! If that happens at Xmas I'm officially psychic I have since cut cheese from my diet.
|
|
|
Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 4, 2013 15:32:55 GMT
I think Alan's got it slightly wrong but I agree with several of his points
Moving the show off Saturday's to the 7 p.m. slot actually increased it's audience, but in retrospect probably only hastened the show's downfall
- putting it on two nights a week was silly as a entire season was over very fast and the show was (like now !!) OFF air alot more than on air (back in the early 80's there were few repeats too unlike earlier...)
the show despite reatining audience figures was going downhill during the Williams/Adams era of supposed 'whimsical comedy' that Adams openly admitted; 'the humour did not come across as intended'
Tom Baker's departure didn't harm the show - some long term fans had given up on all the weak comedic stuff - and under Peter Davison the show grew stronger, however the fact that Davison surprisingly - on his agents advice ? - got out by his third season, even departing a story early, suggests all was not well behind the scenes even then.....
They probably ought to have put it back on Saturdays soon after Peter Davison came in, and ONCE a week as people often missed at least one episode out of the two in the week due to commitments thus were far more likely to then 'give up' on a tale...(was that a part of some BBC mandarins overall plan ?)
John Nathan Turner is a bit of an enigma, he DID restore alot of credibility to the show in Tom Baker's final season & Peter Davison's era, but later he appeared to 'lose the plot' somewhat...in truth many of his decisions only played straight into Grade & co's open hands re the shows planned demise in the late 80's...
He supposedly turned down a chance to produce 'Bergerac' (tho' his idea apparently was to axe John Nettles & relocate it off the Channel Islands - that sounds clever !) and no doubt stuck with Dr.Who to try to keep it on air
BUT allowing some ineptly realised scripts ('Twin Dilemma', 'Timelash'. 'Time & The Rani'), then after the disgraceful sacking of the perfectly accepted by the public Colin Baker ( bar a few vocal over sensitive 'big fans' who had issues about the 'strangling Peri' scene in 'Twin Dilemma' that was over played) plus his casting the abysmally irritating Bonnie Langford as Mel, together with all those out of work and hopelessly out of place old comedians, and the (possibly BBC mandarin forced) casting of the inexperienced at best (& downright weak at worst) Sylvester McCoy - (being repeatedly made to 'look silly' and literally tripped up by some directors) and the mis-casting of middle class if not posh older 'well developed' Sophie Aldred as the younger 'street cred' filled wild child 'Ace' (but wearing a Fabulous 'Blue Peter' Badge ? - honestly BBC...!) all only played into Grade & his lots hands
finally the unecessary 'suspension' during Colin Baker's era, for no tangeable reason & clearly NOT at the time planned (hence the 'freeze' at the end of 'Revelation of The Daleks' so the word 'Blackpool' leading into the next season's fully planned 'The Nightmare Fair' story, was not uttered by Colin Baker), then later after a string of very daft styled stories, then not announcing the next season & finally deliberately 'pitching it' up against 'Coronation Street' in order to finally 'kill the damn thing off' in the ratings....completed Grade's plan (for his BBC mandarin colleagues) even if by then he'd already 'jumped ship' over to Channel Four...to help drag them downhill further...!
Colin Baker's Doctor,(despite some older fans,who had no problem with a absurdly long scarf, going into silly vocal 'meltdown' over a multi coloured coat) was actually very popular with youngsters when he appeared with Peri on a BBC kids show phone in & later when he did the Dr.Who theatre production - so Grade's moans re the show bore no relation to reality, even if by then the show did need freshening up with a new producer (as it would normally by then have received had things been more normal at the BBC)
So in many ways 'Doctor Who' would have been o.k. had JNT only done a 'Barry Letts' circa 1970, and played to the show's basic core strengths and kept the stories more readily acessable & adventuresome, thus easier for all to enjoy, rather than going all 'mega complex' with unseen back stories in places, plus far too lightweight with mis-cast comedians, and questionable 'Evelyn Waugh' parodies and allowing some absurd 'panto' styled acting & monsters in some tales...for that JNT no doubt put some people off watching the show altogether (I knew more than one long term fan who 'gave up on it' at that time) with an inexperienced lead actor, initially at least looking totally out of his depth, dressed in question mark jumper & holding question mark umbrella looking something of a joke being chased by vacuum cleaner machines with faces, big 'Bertie Bassett' Kandy man etc....
JNT maybe unintentionally putting the rope firmly around the show's neck so those BBC mandarins could firmly pull it...
|
|
|
Post by scotttelfer on Dec 4, 2013 17:41:23 GMT
Peter Davison actually accredits his decision to leave to Patrick Troughton, he famously gave him the advice to do "three years, no more." Of course, everyone acknowledges this advice but Davison is the only one to every actually follow it.
Also, Ace's Blue Peter badge belonged to Sophie Aldred. The BBC actually tried to get it removed from her because they try to sue anyone who wears one without having been given "permission" to do so (by actually earning it). In actual fact Sophie Aldred had earned a Blue Peter badge (twice in fact) but it got them into a right old mess.
|
|
|
Post by Jaspal Cheema on Dec 4, 2013 18:03:55 GMT
There was a flavour of Peter Capaldi's new Dr.during the superb Imagine documentary on Machiavelli last night.Peter was shown reciting key statements from 'The Prince',Machiavelli's bible for would-be dictators-and God,was he excellent!By the intensity of his performance and presence,he will make a stunning 12th Doctor.Let's just hope he gets the scripts to match,because he will and should be a dark incarnation of the character.
|
|
|
Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 4, 2013 21:05:03 GMT
Yes Scott, but do remember that Patrick Troughton (Bless him !) was doing some 48 weeks a year (Like Hartnell) back in the sixties - not just 14 episodes a year or so screened in just SEVEN weeks due to being on twice weekly as Peter 'blink and you almost missed him' Davison was in the eighties
Peter Purves (as first Doctor companion Steven Taylor) was in 'Dr.Who' for just about a year in 1965-66, and he said that he did FORTY FOUR episodes which was MORE than Colin Baker did in his entire 'three year era' as The Doctor....and probably even more than Davison did in his 'three years' too...
so Pat Troughton's 'three years' rule meant ALOT more when he said it than re the ever decreasing show of later years, and can't be compared in realistic terms, especially compared to the sheer amount of episodes/stories the first and second Doctors notched up, and the far longer eras of the third and fourth Doctors too....
While each of the first to fourth Doctors had six part tales, even longer in the sixties, but Davison never had anything longer than a four parter thus his complete stories screened twice weekly were OVER in just two weeks - older tales lasted a month or more...hence a 'Daleks Invasion of Earth' / 'Power of The Daleks' / 'Day of...' / 'Genesis of...' etc stuck in the mind far longer, as you experienced those tales for a far longer period of your time, than say 'Resurrection of...' which was all over in just 2 weeks back at the times of transmission...
I still suspect Davison's agent advised him to get out of 'Dr.Who' fast....hence him dropping out a story early in only his third season, BEFORE the stormy waters hit the show...and go and do shows deemed more 'highbrow' like 'A Very Peculiar Practice' ( with Patrick Troughton's son !) and 'Campion' etc....that is 'proper' adult BBC shows that were not frowned upon by the BBC 'powers that be'...
If that badge belonged to Sophie Aldred herself, then it was not really proper to the character Ace was it....?
and would a punky full of 'street cred' rebellious kid like Ace really be 'seen dead' wearing such a terribly 'old hat' BBC Establishment item ?
- if anything Ace would have been more of a MAGPIE girl ...!
|
|
|
Post by Richard Marple on Dec 4, 2013 21:11:08 GMT
One problem Dr Who had during the 1980s was ITV making a lot of effort to win the ratings war saturday nights, bouncing back from the 1979 strike.
Season 18 sufferd from this, making a move to midweek look like a good alternative.
I did find Colin Baker et al made the 6th doctor too sinister at first, but managed to tone things down by the end of the 22rd series, sadly a bit too late.
Sylvester McCoy seemed to wobble a fine line between comical & serious, I don't mind a bit of quirkiness like that, but some others didn't.
|
|
|
Post by Alan Jeffries on Dec 4, 2013 22:30:02 GMT
I'm always happy to be corrected if I get things wrong, especially established facts. :0)
There were lots of things I didn't like during the latter days of Who. Bad acting (Horns of Nimon), boring stories (Time-Flight) and cringe worthy and lazy effects (Warriors of the Deep). Hartnell would never have stood for some of that stuff I'm sure. But on the other hand there was some great stuff. I would have loved it if Richard Mace had joined the crew. His sense of wonder would have added a new dimension to the stories. I do have a liking for the Candyman, but I like absurd and surreal things. I may be wrong ( and stand to be corrected) but the 3 parters seem a bit rushed almost as if they were written as four episodes and were heavily edited.
Anyway back to the upcoming Doctor. When rumours of who was going to be the new Doctor were beginning to surface, I said then that what the show needed was a change in dynamic. Stick someone older in I said. And they did. The storytelling will have to be tighter and hopefully have a gravitas we've not seen. The relationship will change with the companion which will add a new direction to be explored. Who thrives on change and this one is surely welcomed by me. The brief glimpse we got of the new bloke, made him look a bit grumpy. And I hope that what we get will be a teacher, an explorer a bit of a grumpy scientist who gets frustrated when no-one understands what he is saying. But most of all something wonderful. It flipping well better be good. I just got a 55 inch TV so I can watch the Christmas ep in an EPIC way!
Alan
|
|