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Post by markboulton on Mar 3, 2014 21:07:30 GMT
Ah well, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks! Agree to disagree, and all that! Yes, mono is more *powerful* but I prefer power that's spread rather than right across the sound stage. As if the amps, drumkit, singer's PAs etc. were all spread at different positions on the stage rather than be deafened by a set of amps all of which seem to span the entire width of the stage. I seek "energy", not "assertiveness" - it's about fun, drive, vigour - not a relentless onslaught unless you're listening to Megadeath, but not The Shadows, Hollies or Beatles. Even "Helter Skelter" benefits from being able to hear, nay FEEL, the chugging, the driving beat, the raucous vocals - all interplaying at various parts of the soundstage, rather than channelled down the middle in one noisy line right between the eyes. Yes, more powerful, but then so is being whacked on the head with Maxwell's Silver Hammer. And instead of being rousing, it just hurts.
Of course, at a HUGE stadium concert that's the end effect, but that's not how I want recorded music to sound in my home! I know however some people do want that (and have the types of home whereby Environmental Officers wouldn't be called round by 4 angry neighbours for recreating such an aural assault on the block!)
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Post by Patrick Coles on Mar 4, 2014 16:46:39 GMT
it's not just about 'power' tho'....a back up acoustic guitar should not be far louder than an electric guitar (as on The stereo Hollies 'All The World is Love') or a tambourine should not be given much greater prominence in the mix over drums, bass, guitar as in Cream's stereo 'I Feel Free' - some of those sixties stereo 'mixes' are just strange !
Later recording engineers at EMI have gone back to alter stereo mixes to improve them (The Beatles 'Hey Bulldog' being a classic example - compare the original 1968 stereo mix to the later 'Songtrack' stereo mix version)
The Hollies stereo 'Jennifer Eccles' (1968) starts off with instruments on both channels...but about half way through the instrumentation for some reason totally vanishes on one channel, leaving just Clarke/Nash vocals left - the track doesn't start that way and sounds very odd with such a radical alteration mid way through...while the mono version (which was the 'hit' single) is constant ...
on The Hollies song 'Maker' (1967) the acoustic guitar opens powerfully...but then loses power and receeds into the background in the stereo mix, but in mono it retains power and prominence playing alongside the sitar...
Stereo 'Hollies Greatest' (1968) has an alternate version of; 'Yes I Will' (not the 1965 hit single version) but the mono version of the album DOES feature the original hit single (some copies of '20 Golden Greats' LP later also included the 'alternate' version too...)
The Fourmost song; 'I Love You Too' is a completely different version stereo to mono on Gerry's 'Ferry cross The Mersy' LP - likewise the Cliff/Shadows song; 'I Want You To Know' on 'Listen To Cliff' album....
....and also Manfred Mann's instrumental; 'Why Should We Not ?' on the 'Soul of Mann' album, while 'Mr. Anello' has notably differing mono to stereo features, the guitar part for one...!
Traffic's 'Heaven is in Your Mind' (1967) has a totally different guitar solo stereo to mono versions...
so you need ALL formats...
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Post by Richard Marple on Mar 4, 2014 20:22:44 GMT
I've heard that John Lennon wasn't impressed by the quad mix of one of his early solo albums, & insisted that he shoud be properly mixed as a true quad. link
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Post by Patrick Coles on Mar 5, 2014 18:06:13 GMT
yeah John also said, given the chance, he would 're-record' EVERY track he'd ever done (Beatles & solo)...!
I believe he also once said that EMI stood for 'Every Mistake Imaginable' - which is a bit harsh given his tendency to get his OWN lyrics wrong..... ! (i.e. as on 'Please Please Me', plus the 'Blackpool Big Night Out' & 'Ed Sullivan Show' live versions of his song 'Help !' in 1965...and even years later 'Come Together' on the 'Live in New York' album)
John DID insist that Beatles Producer George Martin oversaw the The 'Red' 1962-66 and 'Blue' 1967-70 albums in 1973 to top ensure quality mixes - note the MONO versions of; 'Love Me Do', 'Please Please Me' (minus Lennon's vocal mistake & the out of time harmonica part at the end) , and 'She Loves You' were included on the later CD release of the 'Red' 1962-66 album as opposed to the stereo versions ''Love Me Do' & 'She Loves You' in fake stereo) that were on the original vinyl albums.
I believe from memory (without going & checking them both ) that 'From Me To You' is the mono 'hit' Parlophone single version (with harmonica on intro) on the later 'Red 1962-66' Compact Disc version too....as opposed to the stereo version (minus harmonica on the intro) which is on the original 'Red 1962-66' vinyl album version.
On 'I Should Have Known Better' (on 'A Hard Days Night' album) there is a noticeable 'clunk' of an edit very early on during the intro (presumably repairing some mistake) while John's harmonica disappears for a brief moment - in stereo it's VERY noticeable, but the mono version attempts to hide this much more, indicating more work was done during preparation of the mono mix.
I think back in the early sixties they didn't expect (any) early pop music stereo versions to get that much critical attention to detail by most youngsters thus no great attention to detail was made re the stereo mixes - back then only a few had stereo record players & those who did were mostly those into classical music, light orchestral (Mantovani etc), mood music, and stage & screen soundtracks - even the Trad Jazz albums and comedy albums were mostly issued in mono only.
By the early seventies the situation had changed dramatically and many audiophiles had appeared - Stereo was all the rage - hence many mono recordings got that 'electronically reprocessed for stereo' fake stereo so that they could put 'Stereo' on the label & cover as a selling angle, plus then the short lived tho' interesting 'Quadrophonic' era came and went...
EMI then issued stereo versions of old early originally 'mono only' sixties hits albums such as;'Cliff's Hit Album' & 'The Shadows' Greatest Hits' circa 1970, reprocessing mono only cuts to stereo where neccessary (tho' re The Shadows they actually re-channelled mono 'F.B.I.', 'Wonderful Land', & 'The Boys' to fake stereo - when at least the latter two DID exist in true stereo versions...and a true stereo 'F.B.I'- which was issued in Japan - has finally got a UK release on that expanded Shadows set I mentioned above).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 12:24:22 GMT
A lot of the bands themselves preferred the mono versions. The Pretty Things recommend the mono SF Sorrow over even the stereo remaster ... and Mick Jagger said 2000 Light Years From Home was lousy in stereo, for example. The Beach Boys are an interesting case ... Brian Wilson only has hearing in one ear so he hears in mono ... but strangely, can mix into stereo as well.
Personally, I prefer mono too, but sometimes, you can find some cool stuff on stereo records by messing around with the balance control. One channel features some very intricate Brian May guitar on The Fairy Feller's Masterstroke on Queen 2, which you lose in the full mix: if you take out the channel with the sax solo on Brown Sugar by The Rolling Stones,you get to listen to some excellent rhythm guitar playing by Keith Richards (I discovered that in a pub which had 2 rooms, 1 speaker in each): The Beatles' Rain instrumental channel is very trippy during the verse and you get to hear the backing vocals and then Lennon's harmony in the chorus. Wonderful stuff.
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Post by Richard Marple on Mar 6, 2014 13:27:21 GMT
I remember that series on classic albums found some odd things on the multi tracks of some albums that were left out of the final mix.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Mar 7, 2014 10:35:42 GMT
the stereo v mono thing is most interesting in that either format highlights differeing aspects
In some cases the mono mix is sharper, in others the stereo mix gives a fuller sound, while you then get the wholesale 'differences' between the versions !
so you really need recordings in both formats (plus quadro where applicable)
On The Hollies song; 'Everything is Sunshine' (1967 - 'b' side of 'King Midas in Reverse') in mono the 'tinkling piano' during the instrumental break is emphatic, assertive, and right up in 'in ya face'....while in stereo it is put out on one channel with far less prominence and power - while 'Postcard' (1967) has seagulls and waves in different places stereo to mono
The Beatles 'Blue Jay Way' (1967) also has sound effects in differing places stereo to mono versions, & 'I'm Only Sleeping' (1966) has extra backwards guitar in mono to stereo.
But conversely to The Hollies 'Everything is Sunshine' on The Shadows vocal track; 'San Francisco' (1967) in mono the lead guitar is reasonably in the background with all the other instruments ... while in stereo it's put separate to other instruments out on one channel all alone and is far louder !
so it depends which version you might prefer, or if no preference you need BOTH formats in order to have the complete album.
The Bee Gees song; 'Idea' (1968) has a pause on intro - in mono weird calls & applause feature during that pause but not so on the stereo version...(!)
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Post by markboulton on Mar 10, 2014 21:19:47 GMT
Well, I was starting to get seriously worried that I'd already dragged this topic on for too long, especially as it's pretty O/T, but I thought I'd just add my comments on the Shadows CD set having received it, since we're happily delving into Mark Lewisohn-style territory now! I hope Laurence/Rob will forgive this thread having gone on for so long (perhaps there should be a section for (once)-Missing Music?)
Much of The Shadows' material showcased on these CDs I had before only on vinyl (albeit stereo) or 8-Track cartridge. For a while, playing the CDs was a nice change to have zero hiss and zero dropouts. However after playing CD1 I noticed that the sound quality is pretty variable. Some tracks are blisteringly astounding (whether mono or stereo), whereas some sound rather lacklustre (dull) and some sound shrill (nasty mid-range twangy resonance). In fact, on reaching Shadoogie onwards (i.e. the tracks from their S/T album) I started to feel I'd simply got used to artificially "hot" sound from my existing copies, but by Nivram I knew something was seriously wrong. The brushes on the cymbals don't sizzle - they sound like someone's fingernails sliding across a piece of paper. The picking of the guitar strings sounds like a dull slap from a gloved finger. The bass has no air around it... Plus, to my ears, it sounded slightly flat (not just dull, I mean flat in pitch). I immediately switched to my 'rip' of the 8-Track, and it instantly sprang to life - immediately sounded in tune (I went back to the CD and it sounded so FLAAAT).
Sadly, it seems in many cases I have to go back to playing my 'old' versions, which I'm happy to live with as far as hiss or dropouts are concerned - sometimes I think clean filtered recordings lose something in the mastering - unfortunately EMI (or should I say, ex-EMI) recordings have always fared pretty badly in this respect.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Mar 12, 2014 11:29:51 GMT
This is applicable with other artists more recent CDs too - maybe the staff working at EMI these days are not quite the same as those who were doing the tracks years ago ? - or less studio time (& money) are spent on the tracks (often I suspect you get a mixture of tracks remastered at various times taken from various releases, hence the differing aural quality etc...)
EMI even managed to 'mis-master' the intro to 'Theme For Young Lovers' for '50 Golden Greats' giving the 'double note' intro....and put a version of 'Wonderful Land' on minus strings & horns (possibly pleasing some 'pureists' but it wasn't the chart topping hit version !)
I still find those original hit singles sound VERY different, not just louder and sharper but much more dynamic - the LP and CD versions sound positively 'genteel' and far more 'sedate' in the case of The Shadows compared to those Columbia singles.
Quite a few of The Beatles & The Hollies (plus others) famous hits have become more 'sanitised' over the years too in my opinion, it's quite noticeable when you go back and listen to how intense they originally sounded.
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