Tony Hart.

[John Green]

There are some 16mm spools listed on ebay as from the estate of Tony Hart.Might they be of interest?

[Peter Stirling]

They were put up for auction a while back as well.
There maybe little interest as nobody perhaps has heard of the characters in the films as they did not get to television?

Shame, as the clearance people will eventually get tired of holding them -and in the skip they will go-thus history repeats itself.

[Gary Critcher]

How much stuff is there, does it come with copyright and how much do they want?

[John Green]

I've emailed the seller,and he says he doesn't know the running-time.I see that the picture of Tony Hart is from the Blue Peter studio,so even if it had been used on BP,it would still survive,wouldn't it?
Hart was involved with BP a great deal in the early days,even designing the logo,I read.

[John Green]

It seems that Tony Hart was the Quackers operator on Tich and Quackers for a number of years,so although the photo of him with Peter Palette was from Blue Peter,is it possible that these films were used in T&Q?

[Peter Stirling]

Dec 28, 2011 13:16:27 GMT Gary Critcher said:

How much stuff is there, does it come with copyright and how much do they want?

From memory it was a 16mm collection, there was a couple of complete episodes of 'Vision On' which were quickly sold on, but what was left (and they are trying to sell now) was about 10 or so of Tony's more obscure animation character films, which maybe he tried to sell to the BBC as new characters but were not taken up?
There was also a few of Tony's home movies of his family, which puzzlingly you wonder why his daughter had no sentimental attachment to them and was quite prepared for them to fall into the hands of strangers?

[John Green]

The description mentions 13 reels which sounds like a season-if only in the sense that 4x13=52.
It's irritating when vendors seem determined to offer non-information e.g. a photo of a marionette,and a description which reads 'Art Animation?'?

[Gary Critcher]

I've had contact with the seller now. He says it is all silent and also has no idea on copyright. Which woul dlead me to believe it resides with Tony's Estate. I was thinking I might release them on DVD, but with no sound & no copyright...it's looking unlikely.

[John Green]

Thank you for trying.It can be frustrating wondering what things are and in this case,what's going to become of them.
What's the situation with property like this? Do you know if copyright has to be renewed after a certain number of years?

[Robert Belford]

The copyright will last until 70 years after Tony Hart's death and assuming he didn't sign it over to anyone else (such as the BBC) it will have passed to his next of kin unless he specified otherwise in his will.

There's no requirement to renew or register anything. It's automatic.

It's possible for someone to own the physical films but not the copyright. That is why Gary asked whether the price if the films includes the copyright. It would have to be signed over in writing by whoever owns it.

If you bought the films and didn't own the copyright you'd be able to watch them in private but any public performance, broadcast or release of them would require the permission of the copyright owner.

It's quite possible that the person selling doesn't know the status of the copyright, whether they've been broadcast etc.

Dec 29, 2011 13:45:50 GMT John Green said:

Thank you for trying.It can be frustrating wondering what things are and in this case,what's going to become of them.
What's the situation with property like this? Do you know if copyright has to be renewed after a certain number of years?

[John Green]

Thanks for clarifying that,though it still seems a bit odd.I seem to remember that the advice in the 60s was post mail yourself a copy of your own song,short story (though hopefully not statue) to establish copyright.I've always wondered what good that did.
What safeguards are there if someone else gets hold of your film and claims that they were the creators?

[Robert Belford]

I've heard that advice. The idea is that you don't open the package and keep it in case you have to prove the date the item was created. The date stamp is proof of the date.

If you've made a film you might have scripts, storyboards, notes, a workprint or rough edit, photos on location, your name in the credits. Your voice might be on some of the shots. So you have a trail of evidence that proves your involvement.

One of the dangers with digital is that people can have an identical "copy" of something. But even in the case of a digital photograph you might have other similar frames that you took at the time, whereas the other person only has the image you gave them.

Jan 1, 2012 18:43:01 GMT John Green said:

Thanks for clarifying that,though it still seems a bit odd.I seem to remember that the advice in the 60s was post mail yourself a copy of your own song,short story (though hopefully not statue) to establish copyright.I've always wondered what good that did.
What safeguards are there if someone else gets hold of your film and claims that they were the creators?

[Tim Disney]

Basically, copyright in the U.K doesn't have to be registered. It is your automatic right over anything original that you create. However, the more evidence you can retain in terms of when the work was created and your personal involvement in it, the better. Copyright is only as good as your ability to prove that you created the work and when you created it, coupled with your willingness to defend it, should it be challenged or breached. If someone were to challenge your copyright, at the very least, they would need to produce similar types of evidence to prove ownership and the right to use the work in any court proceedings.

The problem with so many of these orphaned works is that if you do purchase the copyright, you need to see sufficient evidence that the seller is in fact the existing copyright holder. It would always be advisable to set aside a percentage of your release budget to cover an unexpected royalties claim by a third party.

[Ian Watlington]

Jan 1, 2012 19:08:16 GMT Robert Belford said:

I've heard that advice. The idea is that you don't open the package and keep it in case you have to prove the date the item was created. The date stamp is proof of the date

That is discredited advice unfortunately, any copyright lawyer will tell you that it wouldn't stand up in court... the only thing the date stamp proves is when you sent the letter to yourself, it doesn't prove that you created the item before anybody else...

As for the Tony Hart films, don't forget that he made many insert animations for Vision On and Take Hart, and he retained the copyright in them... so the reels are probably the originals of that sort of thing, the abstract animations set to music. Maybe somewhere in his personal effects there are all the mag soundtracks that go with them...

[John Green]

The images provided by the seller show animated characters painting (and in one case being painted by a brush coming in from outside the frame).It seems to be related to this puppet character Peter Palate who at one time seem to have been well known,and is shown with Hart in the BBC studio photo.