Kev Hunter
Member
The only difference between a rut and a groove is the depth
Posts: 608
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Post by Kev Hunter on Jan 26, 2022 18:04:04 GMT
I think there was a wee bit more to it than Polly Brown(e) deciding it was a good idea to wear brown make-up - she was renamed (possibly by her management) "Sara Leone" when she was part of Sweet Dreams, an obvious play on Sierra Leone; apparently Polly was once rumoured to be romantically linked to Savile, which doesn't say much for her decisions at all. One of her former bandmates said the stories about being involved with Savile were just a publicity stunt. Many people were taken in by Jimmy Savile. I don't really see how any of what you've said adds up to more. She obviously loved soul music. As usual you're looking at it and judging from a 2022 perspective nearly 50 years later. Think about that. We're as far removed from 1974 as they were from 1926. Pamela Stephenson appeared in brown make-up as Moira Stewart on Not the Nine O'Clock News and Ronnie Barker appeared as "Big Fat Momma" and Ronnie Corbett as Stevie Wonder in a Top of the Pops spoof in the early 1980s. One of the most concerning things about the censorship is that allows the BBC to play a holier than thou role. Because nothing is shown it's almost as if the BBC never made anything like this. And then when one thing pops up the individual is jumped on as an out-of-the-ordinary bigot. When it fact it was all quite widespread and part of the culture of the time. I wasn't making any big statement about it, you're looking for things that weren't implied, and where did you get the 'as usual' bit from? I was reacting to the way that you made it sound as if Polly just slapped on a bit too much dark make-up, when it was clearly a device for a reason that must have seemed a good idea at the time. And even in back in 1974 I thought it was a crap thing to do but then I never liked the song anyway.. it was far too throwaway for my tastes.
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Post by garygraham on Jan 26, 2022 18:14:11 GMT
One of her former bandmates said the stories about being involved with Savile were just a publicity stunt. Many people were taken in by Jimmy Savile. I don't really see how any of what you've said adds up to more. She obviously loved soul music. As usual you're looking at it and judging from a 2022 perspective nearly 50 years later. Think about that. We're as far removed from 1974 as they were from 1926. Pamela Stephenson appeared in brown make-up as Moira Stewart on Not the Nine O'Clock News and Ronnie Barker appeared as "Big Fat Momma" and Ronnie Corbett as Stevie Wonder in a Top of the Pops spoof in the early 1980s. One of the most concerning things about the censorship is that allows the BBC to play a holier than thou role. Because nothing is shown it's almost as if the BBC never made anything like this. And then when one thing pops up the individual is jumped on as an out-of-the-ordinary bigot. When it fact it was all quite widespread and part of the culture of the time. I wasn't making any big statement about it, you're looking for things that weren't implied, and where did you get the 'as usual' bit from? I was reacting to the way that you made it sound as if Polly just slapped on a bit too much dark make-up, when it was clearly a device for a reason that must have seemed a good idea at the time. And even in back in 1974 I thought it was a crap thing to do but then I never liked the song anyway.. it was far too throwaway for my tastes. Sorry I meant as usual as people tend to do. Not particularly anything you did previously. I know people didn't like it at the time because by then it was being seen as unacceptable by some. I know from personal experience that some people who did that did it out admiration for singers such as Diana Ross. As a tribute. Certainly not hateful in any intentional way. The intent should always be considered IMO but seldom is.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 26, 2022 19:33:22 GMT
I’m not sure whether Till Death could be shown now. The irony is that Johnny Speight wrote it to shine a light on bigotry.
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Post by rebeccajansen on Jan 26, 2022 19:44:58 GMT
There are people who make a profit from upping the drama and conflict aspect of anything, usually involving half truths... a fact of some kind out of context to manufacture outraged reactionism. I don't think anyone is entirely immune to it and it can be played on any political outlook. Hopefully we get wiser about it before it does serious damage. So we return to this 'may' happen or 'may' be happening, though it is based on some of what is known to happen and have happened. It's not an invalid concern and spinning off just needs to be watched out for. If you get people reacting they are apt to make poor decisions anyway, but openness to full information seems a good defense as opposed to this person is 'evil' and that one a 'saint'.
If black people say they are offended by black-face that needs to be heard and respected. If white people feel it makes them look stupid that can be part of it. It happened, we were idiots, there was no black 'problem', as James Baldwin argues it was us whites (some of us) who had some kind of problem. I mostly think it's just something we whites feel embarrassed by. There was an early recorded music and stage artist, Bert Williams, from the West Indies, around the turn of the century, and he wore black-face. He also wrote many very smart and entertaining songs about American life as he witnessed it and there is an excellent book about his life and times. Obviously it would be beyond ironic if he was left out from modern appreciation because of that one aspect of his stage and film appearance because in it's context there is a lot to be appreciated, he was major popular black star and figure commenting on society.
I remember seeing Tom & Jerry and other vintage cartoons with blackface dialact gags in them when I was little and noticed how they and the black maid started not, well, being in them. I hit an awareness quite early because of that even though I'd never seen or heard Amos & Andy (which often the cartoons were doing an impression of in those black-face from some explosion moment), not The Great Gildersleeve character mentioned and parodied in Bugs Bunny. There were lots of racial caricatures of Japanese people during WWII in cartoons and I, understandably, never got to see those on regular broadcast. It's a narrow path and always will be... balancing, but destroying I would hope not. Statues erected of people is however a message and I can have some sympathy for people wanting removal, or even venting anger. In the U.S. many Confederate statues were erected long after the conflict to send a message, and this despite Robert E. Lee himself having cautioned strongly against memorials keeping wounds from healing. Black people in southern states had to enter government building under the losing side Confederacy rebellion flag within my own lifetime. As I wrote before... people before things, people before some flag. Generations of white people seeing it as merely some vague southern pride symbol is in the vein of ignorance being innocence which it is not.
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Post by garygraham on Jan 26, 2022 19:59:57 GMT
I wonder how many British children or even adults (Tom and Jerry was made for adults) didn't realise the Black woman was a maid? As a child I assumed she was the owner of the house.
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Post by Richard Marple on Jan 26, 2022 21:33:57 GMT
I wonder how many British children or even adults (Tom and Jerry was made for adults) didn't realise the Black woman was a maid? As a child I assumed she was the owner of the house. It took me years to even realise she was supposed to be black! Not helped by never seeing her face & not many people here having her accent.
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Post by Richard Marple on Jan 26, 2022 21:36:09 GMT
William Hartnell was born in 1908 and there are allegations to the effect that he didn’t much care for non-whites. There is information here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hartnell However, how different was he from others born in the same era? This isn’t the place to discuss Hartnell’s clearly complex character but if you wanted to make accusations of bigotry there is probably evidence available. The way things are nowadays - changing a typeface! - what do you do with old TV shows where the star could be accused of being a bigot? The real problem stems from the fact that some people simply cannot tolerate someone having a different point of view. Some would argue that having Hartnell's views is not being a bigot; they are also entitled to their view. The "socially aware" brigade seem to have concluded that their view is the only correct one, and everyone else is wrong; therefore, the "non-socially aware" must be corrected in their thinking. They won't correct mine! The way to defeat them is to continue to go about one's life the same way one always has, and refuse to go along with the nonsense. Still doing Der Massers dirty work for him I see. Ironically far too many Gammons are destroying the present & future by trying to live in an idealised version of the past that never existed, but Der Masser doesn't want you to know that.
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Post by garygraham on Jan 26, 2022 21:49:50 GMT
"Der Massers dirty work"
I've been wondering what your intention is in repeating this over and over? Whose speech, dialect or whatever are you mocking?
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Post by Scot Ferre on Jan 26, 2022 23:28:52 GMT
What a bizarre thread. I can’t say that politics is a good thing to discuss here.
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Post by Colin Anderton on Jan 26, 2022 23:38:25 GMT
Pamela Stephenson appeared in brown make-up as Moira Stewart on Not the Nine O'Clock News This is an example of what I mean by not appeasing the "socially aware" lot. If a comedian is going to do an impersonation of Moira Stuart, then surely they apply black make-up for the sketch - simply because Moira Stuart is a black woman! Why is that offensive to any normal person? All impersonators try their best to look like the person they're impersonating. If Pamela Stephenson did this impression today, should she look like a white woman? Or should only black people impersonate black people, and white people only impersonate white people? This is not a criticism of Gary - I just pulled the comment from his post. But why do we allow people from all over the world to come and live here, then start changing our way of life to suit them? This is mainly where this "socially aware" nonsense originates from, and our youngsters are too naive to see what they're trying to do.
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Post by Colin Anderton on Jan 26, 2022 23:45:19 GMT
Alf Garnett was mentioned. I was eleven when it was first broadcast, but I can honestly say I always loved the programme, but it didn't in any way make me racist. My views on such matters were formed many years later. I bought the series - and the follow-up "In Sickness And In Health" - while I still can. I don't think a TV or radio series affects people's views the way everyone today seems to believe.
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Post by garygraham on Jan 27, 2022 0:21:34 GMT
To be fair many people were born here. In my experience it isn't those who have come recently who complain about this. One of my friends is Nigerian, a Brexit supporter (though couldn't vote) and has a wicked sense of humour.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 27, 2022 0:23:33 GMT
Alf Garnett was mentioned. I was eleven when it was first broadcast, but I can honestly say I always loved the programme, but it didn't in any way make me racist. My views on such matters were formed many years later. I bought the series - and the follow-up "In Sickness And In Health" - while I still can. I don't think a TV or radio series affects people's views the way everyone today seems to believe. I think that some bigots saw Till Death and took succour from it.
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Post by Colin Anderton on Jan 27, 2022 9:59:10 GMT
Alf Garnett was mentioned. I was eleven when it was first broadcast, but I can honestly say I always loved the programme, but it didn't in any way make me racist. My views on such matters were formed many years later. I bought the series - and the follow-up "In Sickness And In Health" - while I still can. I don't think a TV or radio series affects people's views the way everyone today seems to believe. I think that some bigots saw Till Death and took succour from it. My simple point is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are losing the right to free speech, just because it offends someone. You may call them bigots, that's your opinion - and you're entitled to it. But if you truly believe in a free society, then it has to work the other way as well.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 27, 2022 10:29:26 GMT
I think that some bigots saw Till Death and took succour from it. My simple point is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are losing the right to free speech, just because it offends someone. You may call them bigots, that's your opinion - and you're entitled to it. But if you truly believe in a free society, then it has to work the other way as well. I believe in free speech and am a member of freespeechunion.org/But does free speech extend to defamation, inciting hate or shouting “fire!” In a crowded nightclub?
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