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Post by John Wall on Jan 21, 2019 22:40:13 GMT
Quite a few of the returned episodes were sold/aquired at Boot/film Fairs in the 1980s, we dont know if all that were sold have turned up so far. I think it’s clear that the odd prints recovered came from those returned from abroad (mainly Australia) and were half-inched from the destruction pile at Enterprises - probably in pairs. I, I contend, take the credit for comparing MEs to Krynoid pods - they travel in pairs! We know from PV that another one or two are definitely out there but there could well be more, although I don’t know how many.
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Post by mattg on Jan 21, 2019 22:46:02 GMT
Power was animated? Hummm, I though Pat was walking a bit funny... I agree that wheel's short animation is odd, but I don't feel it has anything to do with a recovery. PM comments about tracing Snowman and wheel after being split from enemy and web are most likely a coincidence with wheel animation. PM is definitely hiding something with his vague statements.... whether its an ep or two or an empty sock drawer remains to be seen. There seemed to be a bit of a disagreement at MBW between a couple of the people involved in the Wheel 1 animation as to the future. What we’ve got is a bit of an oddball animation. I don’t mean that unkindly as the animation was, imho, very good. However, it wasn’t an abbreviated or condensed Episode 1 but a pretty good reconstruction of the first ten minutes. Wheel is a six part “big monster” story with two surviving episodes - I see it, even in that state, as a good candidate for animation. As to PM I’m afraid I don’t think he’s got any more DW - although I’d like to be proven wrong. Incidentally has anyone offered up a credible explanation/theory as to why that paltry few minutes of Wheel' animation even exists? Indeed, it's rather redolent of some pseudo proof of concept....of a concept long since proven in Doctor Who's case (I.e. the animation of missing episodes)! All in all a rather dubious endeavour of speculative, negligible worth...at least as so far as things stand.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 21, 2019 23:00:00 GMT
There seemed to be a bit of a disagreement at MBW between a couple of the people involved in the Wheel 1 animation as to the future. What we’ve got is a bit of an oddball animation. I don’t mean that unkindly as the animation was, imho, very good. However, it wasn’t an abbreviated or condensed Episode 1 but a pretty good reconstruction of the first ten minutes. Wheel is a six part “big monster” story with two surviving episodes - I see it, even in that state, as a good candidate for animation. As to PM I’m afraid I don’t think he’s got any more DW - although I’d like to be proven wrong. Incidentally has anyone offered up a credible explanation/theory as to why that paltry few minutes of Wheel' animation even exists? Indeed, it's rather redolent of some pseudo proof of concept....of a concept long since proven in Doctor Who's case (I.e. the animation of missing episodes)! All in all a rather dubious endeavour of speculative, negligible worth...at least as so far as things stand. I hope it’s the first step to animating the four missing episodes.
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jan 22, 2019 0:07:27 GMT
I'd agree with the sentiment that any story that is getting an animation, such as Macra, must have low hopes of being recovered. When PM's search is concluded, I think all we'll get from then on is orphan episodes. Any story completions will be from serials missing very few episodes like Web of fear or Tenth Planet. We can kiss goodbye to the likes of Power of Fury being completed for example. I have to say, with absolutely no foundation whatsoever, that my guess would be there could be as many as 8-10 missing episodes in the hands of collectors, but we'll probably get to see under half that amount. Why do I think this?: We've already seen numerous example of episodes in private hands: I believe there are more in the hands of unwitting collectors, maybe 4-5. The other lot would be from hoarders: people like the person who stole WoF 3 who have dedicated a lot of time and energy into sourcing and tracking down missing material. I'm a pesimistic person but this is one area where I'm unusually optimistic, because I've dealt with people with rabid interests in the past who will stop at nothing to get something. I don’t want to worry you but all six episodes of Power have been animated. Ah ok, I wasn't aware. I don't keep up to date with animations at all since I don't like them. Thanks for letting me know anyway.
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Post by scotttelfer on Jan 22, 2019 0:10:39 GMT
Power was animated? Hummm, I though Pat was walking a bit funny... I agree that wheel's short animation is odd, but I don't feel it has anything to do with a recovery. PM comments about tracing Snowman and wheel after being split from enemy and web are most likely a coincidence with wheel animation. PM is definitely hiding something with his vague statements.... whether its an ep or two or an empty sock drawer remains to be seen. There seemed to be a bit of a disagreement at MBW between a couple of the people involved in the Wheel 1 animation as to the future. What we’ve got is a bit of an oddball animation. I don’t mean that unkindly as the animation was, imho, very good. However, it wasn’t an abbreviated or condensed Episode 1 but a pretty good reconstruction of the first ten minutes. Wheel is a six part “big monster” story with two surviving episodes - I see it, even in that state, as a good candidate for animation. As to PM I’m afraid I don’t think he’s got any more DW - although I’d like to be proven wrong.
From what I've picked up (which could be utter rubbish of course) it seems they finished up Macra, had a bit of time to spare and thought "sod it, let's do something else while we're between jobs, we're still getting paid after all."
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jan 22, 2019 0:13:27 GMT
I'd agree with the sentiment that any story that is getting an animation, such as Macra, must have low hopes of being recovered. When PM's search is concluded, I think all we'll get from then on is orphan episodes. Any story completions will be from serials missing very few episodes like Web of fear or Tenth Planet. We can kiss goodbye to the likes of Power of Fury being completed for example. I have to say, with absolutely no foundation whatsoever, that my guess would be there could be as many as 8-10 missing episodes in the hands of collectors, but we'll probably get to see under half that amount. Why do I think this?: We've already seen numerous example of episodes in private hands: I believe there are more in the hands of unwitting collectors, maybe 4-5. The other lot would be from hoarders: people like the person who stole WoF 3 who have dedicated a lot of time and energy into sourcing and tracking down missing material. I'm a pesimistic person but this is one area where I'm unusually optimistic, because I've dealt with people with rabid interests in the past who will stop at nothing to get something. What makes you think we will ever get them back, assuming for now that those numbers are realistic? I didn't say we would. I'd like to hope a hoarder(s) would have a change of heart eventually and return some. I think several will be lost when their holder dies and their collection is binned. I'm just optimistic about the situation in terms of getting ANY MEs back. I don't know how many, which 1s, but I think we'll get more.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 22, 2019 0:28:04 GMT
There seemed to be a bit of a disagreement at MBW between a couple of the people involved in the Wheel 1 animation as to the future. What we’ve got is a bit of an oddball animation. I don’t mean that unkindly as the animation was, imho, very good. However, it wasn’t an abbreviated or condensed Episode 1 but a pretty good reconstruction of the first ten minutes. Wheel is a six part “big monster” story with two surviving episodes - I see it, even in that state, as a good candidate for animation. As to PM I’m afraid I don’t think he’s got any more DW - although I’d like to be proven wrong. From what I've picked up (which could be utter rubbish of course) it seems they finished up Macra, had a bit of time to spare and thought "sod it, let's do something else while we're between jobs, we're still getting paid after all."
Having seen it I thought it was pretty good and would like to see some more.
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jan 22, 2019 4:00:15 GMT
PM said at one point he was contacted by a collector who wanted to discretely buy any dw me he had found to that point. Could this collector have others? They seem to have capital and connections. Assuming the collector that pilfered Web 3 is different than the one who contacted pm, could this collector have others? Apparently they are connected enough to swipe Web 3 mid recovery. I think there are more in private hands than is generally suspected. 8-10 doesn't sound too far fetched. Exactly. Thanks for putting it this way, this is basically what I was trying to say. If someone is as determined to get their hands on MEs as to contact Phil Morris over it, then they'd have absolutely no qualms with contacting other film collectors, searching high and low at film fairs and other events, having the will power and connections to contact former workers and persons who may have MEs/know of people in the trade etc etc. I would not at all be surprised if the individual(s) behind WOF 3 has other MEs. And this isn't counting a few other people like Terry Burnett out there who unwittingly have an ME or two in their collections.
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Post by richardwoods on Jan 22, 2019 14:16:25 GMT
Personally, while I accept that it's generally a good idea to pour cold water on some of the more wild speculation about recovered Who, l choose to wait until PM finishes his field work & see what if anything is recovered. Anything else is just more speculation IMHO. To my mind, rather than evidence of non-recovery, I see the 10 minute animation of Wheel Episode 1 as more likely being a pointer towards a partial recovery of maybe one or two episodes more of the serial, but I could well be wrong. Without this, I just can't see what the point would be of making it as this sort of work takes considerable time & money I see the 10 minute animation as a precursor to animation of the four missing episodes. You could well be right. Either way it would be good news
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,854
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Post by RWels on Jan 22, 2019 16:37:50 GMT
PM said at one point he was contacted by a collector who wanted to discretely buy any dw me he had found to that point. Could this collector have others? They seem to have capital and connections. Assuming the collector that pilfered Web 3 is different than the one who contacted pm, could this collector have others? Apparently they are connected enough to swipe Web 3 mid recovery. I think there are more in private hands than is generally suspected. 8-10 doesn't sound too far fetched. Exactly. Thanks for putting it this way, this is basically what I was trying to say. If someone is as determined to get their hands on MEs as to contact Phil Morris over it, then they'd have absolutely no qualms with contacting other film collectors, searching high and low at film fairs and other events, having the will power and connections to contact former workers and persons who may have MEs/know of people in the trade etc etc. I would not at all be surprised if the individual(s) behind WOF 3 has other MEs. And this isn't counting a few other people like Terry Burnett out there who unwittingly have an ME or two in their collections. It's something I've wondered about before: What if that person had already succeeded in the past? If I were PM I would establish contact just to see what's there.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 22, 2019 21:13:28 GMT
Exactly. Thanks for putting it this way, this is basically what I was trying to say. If someone is as determined to get their hands on MEs as to contact Phil Morris over it, then they'd have absolutely no qualms with contacting other film collectors, searching high and low at film fairs and other events, having the will power and connections to contact former workers and persons who may have MEs/know of people in the trade etc etc. I would not at all be surprised if the individual(s) behind WOF 3 has other MEs. And this isn't counting a few other people like Terry Burnett out there who unwittingly have an ME or two in their collections. It's something I've wondered about before: What if that person had already succeeded in the past? If I were PM I would establish contact just to see what's there. Agreed. I cant imagine PM ISN'T pursuing it. If the theory holds, the disappearance of Web 3 might be a blessing in disguise, if it were to lead to a small nest of Purloined Prints...
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jan 23, 2019 19:08:36 GMT
Exactly. Thanks for putting it this way, this is basically what I was trying to say. If someone is as determined to get their hands on MEs as to contact Phil Morris over it, then they'd have absolutely no qualms with contacting other film collectors, searching high and low at film fairs and other events, having the will power and connections to contact former workers and persons who may have MEs/know of people in the trade etc etc. I would not at all be surprised if the individual(s) behind WOF 3 has other MEs. And this isn't counting a few other people like Terry Burnett out there who unwittingly have an ME or two in their collections. It's something I've wondered about before: What if that person had already succeeded in the past? If I were PM I would establish contact just to see what's there. Yup, it'd definitely be worth pursuing the person if PM knows who it is. If you told me to bet money on whether I think this person has at least 1 other ME or not (excluding WOF 3) then i'd personally wager on them having one. It's not the kind of hobby someone would have socially aware up on one 2011 morning and developed overnight, it's likely done by an extreme fanatic who has been into film collecting for years and years, thus could well have been involved in similar activity before. The thought had occurred to me though: could this stuff be arranged to be sold on the black market? Although I do think their personal collection is the motive, missing material being the crown jewel in anyone's collection.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 23, 2019 20:42:11 GMT
It's something I've wondered about before: What if that person had already succeeded in the past? If I were PM I would establish contact just to see what's there. Yup, it'd definitely be worth pursuing the person if PM knows who it is. If you told me to bet money on whether I think this person has at least 1 other ME or not (excluding WOF 3) then i'd personally wager on them having one. It's not the kind of hobby someone would have socially aware up on one 2011 morning and developed overnight, it's likely done by an extreme fanatic who has been into film collecting for years and years, thus could well have been involved in similar activity before. The thought had occurred to me though: could this stuff be arranged to be sold on the black market? Although I do think their personal collection is the motive, missing material being the crown jewel in anyone's collection. Black Market sales are very possible, but it would likely happen very quietly between personal connections only. Im leaning towards it being for a personal collection of a fanatic with capital, time, & connections. Usually, it would be an older person with that kind of free time and disposable capital, which opens the possibility they have been searching for prints for 30-40 years potentially back in the day when recovery efforts were less through than they are now. Over that period of time, quite a few could have been excised from archives through one means or another. It is quite possible such an individual could have been searching before wipings ended and the plight of ME's was known. Someone connected with a broadcaster, having prints marked for return or destruction could be contacted, offered money, and think why not sell them quietly (remove traceable markings) and list them as destroyed? Not likely, but possible. Detection and identification of such an individual(s) would be difficult, ascertaining what they actually have being even more difficult, but accessing said material for recovery might be a feat just short of a miracle. If someone were to go to such lengths to aquire prints, I cant imagine they would ever part with their one of a kind stash. In reality, even if this scenario was true, we would probably never know. As legitimate forgotten archives become exhausted, our hope dwindles to collectors and hoarders, where even if it is known who possesses what, they might not be available for decades or ever. I firmly believe those on the inner circle of DW ME's have definitely thought of this or similar scenarios & probably keep tabs on it. If you knew of a collector that had or likely had missing items, I would think you would want to keep a watch if they were to pass on being able to contact heirs & kin to secure items before they journey to the skip. I have faith in their efforts.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 25, 2019 22:41:51 GMT
Power was animated? Hummm, I though Pat was walking a bit funny... I agree that wheel's short animation is odd, but I don't feel it has anything to do with a recovery. PM comments about tracing Snowman and wheel after being split from enemy and web are most likely a coincidence with wheel animation. PM is definitely hiding something with his vague statements.... whether its an ep or two or an empty sock drawer remains to be seen. There seemed to be a bit of a disagreement at MBW between a couple of the people involved in the Wheel 1 animation as to the future. What we’ve got is a bit of an oddball animation. I don’t mean that unkindly as the animation was, imho, very good. However, it wasn’t an abbreviated or condensed Episode 1 but a pretty good reconstruction of the first ten minutes. Wheel is a six part “big monster” story with two surviving episodes - I see it, even in that state, as a good candidate for animation. As to PM I’m afraid I don’t think he’s got any more DW - although I’d like to be proven wrong. I am certain Phil has more, its just a question of what and how many? The bigger question is will we ever get to see them. We have evidence from recent comedy finds that PM is prepared to sit on finds for at least 5 years before returning.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jan 26, 2019 1:05:28 GMT
I'm not certain at all PM has more at all. I think he would have handed them all over at the same time even any thing that was non transmittable at the time of recovery.
There are others out there who also may have found stuff that we don't know about yet either.
PM did some fantastic work that is true but what are the odds of him finding two separate hauls of 1960's Dr. Who episodes when you consider the sheer amount of material BBC Enterprises sent abroad in the 1960's
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