|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 13:20:51 GMT
It looks like Philip Morris’ search is near its end. There are some more revelations to come, but apparently no more Dr Who. At MBW in December 2018 he advised that he was still chasing audition prints, but whilst there may theoretically be some DW still to find in these there probably won’t be any complete stories.
A few things are worth noting.
The first is that it’s now over 7 years since the last DW recovery. PM got into the store in Jos in late 2011 and found Enemy and Web.
The second is that DW was disproportionately represented in PM’s recoveries. There are some who promote the “DW was special” theory, but it wasn’t, it was just one of hundreds, if not thousands, of shows - one offs, series, serials, etc - that Enterprises sold around the world. The exact number of PM’s recoveries is uncertain but the nine DW - plus Web 3 - are a decent percentage of that.
The third is that a few other DW MEs are now known to be out there. Web 3 existed in late 2011 and it’s been subsequently confirmed that there are another one or two, although the prospects for their return are uncertain.
So, where can further recoveries going to come from?
PM recovered the two Morecambe and Wises from a cinema in Sierra Leone and advised at MBW that he’d learnt that TV programmes could have been shown in cinemas there.
It must be noted that, despite exhaustive investigations, no unauthorised showings of DW have been substantiated; the Macra Terror in New Zealand is possibly the most credible, although there are alternative possibilities for what was shown. It must be noted that even if Macra Terror was shown the chances of recovering prints are minimal.
I think that further recoveries from broadcasters can probably now be ruled out. This is because many/most have relocated since they showed missing DW and anyone who’s moved office knows that it’s invariably accompanied by a clearout. It’s only places like Nigeria where PM could find prints that had sat on a shelf for decades and if Snowmen and Wheel had survived in Nigeria PM would have surely recovered them by now.
The other avenue is collectors and I think this is now about the best source for recoveries.
As far as I’m aware the only places where MEs have been recovered from collectors are the UK and NZ, and these were rescued from being destroyed.
It’s worth noting what the circumstances for prints getting to collectors are. It has to be somewhere where prints are being destroyed and there is a community of 16mm film collectors or enthusiasts. There is no obvious reason for someone to pick up a 16mm film can unless it’s of interest to them, someone they know or they think they can sell it.
It’s a very tiny needle and a very large haystack.
|
|
|
Post by Scot Ferre on Jan 20, 2019 15:40:33 GMT
By all accounts, it looks like the best thing to do is wait for Mr Morris to reveal what he has found. Nothing else to do except maybe keep working with private collectors quietly and gently.
|
|
|
Post by martinjwills on Jan 20, 2019 17:01:38 GMT
After what happened to Web3 Philip Morris stated he would not return any more Dr Who unless it completed a story [until the search was over], to stop other episodes going the same way as web3. We dont know what was dug up in the desert, he said cans were found and in good condition if i remember. The gaps between recoveries have been a lot longer than 7 years, and remember Web and enemy were found 2 years before they were revealed. The restoration teams contract was also extended.
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 18:08:01 GMT
By all accounts, it looks like the best thing to do is wait for Mr Morris to reveal what he has found. Nothing else to do except maybe keep working with private collectors quietly and gently. We know that there’s some more to be announced in the near future, but apparently no DW.
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 18:09:35 GMT
After what happened to Web3 Philip Morris stated he would not return any more Dr Who unless it completed a story [until the search was over], to stop other episodes going the same way as web3. We dont know what was dug up in the desert, he said cans were found and in good condition if i remember. The gaps between recoveries have been a lot longer than 7 years, and remember Web and enemy were found 2 years before they were revealed. The restoration teams contract was also extended. Or perhaps we could go with the obvious explanation, he hasn’t found any more DW. It’s clear from the animations that he hasn’t found anything of Power, Wheel or Macra.
|
|
|
Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Jan 20, 2019 18:30:02 GMT
After what happened to Web3 Philip Morris stated he would not return any more Dr Who unless it completed a story [until the search was over], to stop other episodes going the same way as web3. We dont know what was dug up in the desert, he said cans were found and in good condition if i remember. The gaps between recoveries have been a lot longer than 7 years, and remember Web and enemy were found 2 years before they were revealed. The restoration teams contract was also extended. Or perhaps we could go with the obvious explanation, he hasn’t found any more DW. It’s clear from the animations that he hasn’t found anything of Power, Wheel or Macra. I don’t believe Wheel has been announced yet. I know there was the Britbox recon, but the DVD hasn’t been described yet? Or am I wrong? I’m in the chorus that says just give PM some time. He probably hasn’t forgotten us. He knows we’re awaiting his story.
|
|
|
Post by mattg on Jan 20, 2019 18:56:45 GMT
Have to say that whilst Phil Morris has obviously performed sterling work in recovering programmes most of us would've otherwise considered lost forever many would no doubt be disappointed in him if there was literally no more Doctor Who to come. Why? Because since those halcyon days of 2013 Phil has issued a veritable surfeit of unmistakably positive, teasing and cryptic quote/comments pertaining to further 'Who recoveries. The intent and implication of these quotes is abundantly clear yet if he really has been bluffing with an empty hand all this time then one has to question the wisdom (and indeed motivation) of deliberately fostering false hope for so long. Worse, Phil has had everything to gain by openly declaring he had no more 'Who post Web/Enemy's sensational release and absolutely nothing to lose - even if it was in fact a lie. Indeed such candour would've surely ameliorated intense fan scrutiny into his activities (of which he has often complained of) that was exacerbated in no small part by "when you least expect it" and other vexatious yet encouraging quotes he proffered. Regardless, I really hope there's more to come - not just for the obvious reason but because the aforementioned, quite unnecessary mischief will leave a slightly bitter taste in one's mouth otherwise. In spite of these cynical yet pertinent concerns though I for one shall remain steadfastly (if cautiously) positive!
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 19:40:38 GMT
Or perhaps we could go with the obvious explanation, he hasn’t found any more DW. It’s clear from the animations that he hasn’t found anything of Power, Wheel or Macra. I don’t believe Wheel has been announced yet. I know there was the Britbox recon, but the DVD hasn’t been described yet? Or am I wrong? I’m in the chorus that says just give PM some time. He probably hasn’t forgotten us. He knows we’re awaiting his story. There’s a ten minute animation of the start of Wheel Episode 1 that was shown at MBW - I see that as a pretty strong indication that PM had drawn a blank in Nigeria, and that was the only realistic hope for Wheel, see gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/The_Wheel_in_SpaceWhy give him more time? He’s been at this for, I reckon, the best part of a decade - maybe longer. In terms of getting into TV stations it’s clear that he has some sort of “authorisation” from the BBC, etc and there can’t be many, if any, he hasn’t visited. If there was somewhere else like Jos in Nigeria he would have learnt about it and crossed it off the list. With Wheel I reckon we’re probably extremely lucky to have two episodes as it seems unlikely that very many prints were struck.
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 19:52:55 GMT
Have to say that whilst Phil Morris has obviously performed sterling work in recovering programmes most of us would've otherwise considered lost forever many would no doubt be disappointed in him if there was literally no more Doctor Who to come. Why? Because since those halcyon days of 2013 Phil has issued a veritable surfeit of unmistakably positive, teasing and cryptic quote/comments pertaining to further 'Who recoveries. The intent and implication of these quotes is abundantly clear yet if he really has been bluffing with an empty hand all this time then one has to question the wisdom (and indeed motivation) of deliberately fostering false hope for so long. Worse, Phil has had everything to gain by openly declaring he had no more 'Who post Web/Enemy's sensational release and absolutely nothing to lose - even if it was in fact a lie. Indeed such candour would've surely ameliorated intense fan scrutiny into his activities (of which he has often complained of) that was exacerbated in no small part by "when you least expect it" and other vexatious yet encouraging quotes he proffered. Regardless, I really hope there's more to come - not just for the obvious reason but because the aforementioned, quite unnecessary mischief will leave a slightly bitter taste in one's mouth otherwise. In spite of these cynical yet pertinent concerns though I for one shall remain steadfastly (if cautiously) positive! I’d almost be prepared to lay money that he hasn’t found any more DW, despite what some may, or may not, read into what he’s said. What really convinces me is the small number of prints struck for some stories. Wheel, for example, was only sold to six countries gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/The_Wheel_in_Space and there were probably only three, maybe four, sets of prints and there are lots of uncertainties regarding Nigeria - but PM’s been there, and looked under the bed!
|
|
|
Post by Jaspal Cheema on Jan 20, 2019 21:00:23 GMT
It looks like Philip Morris’ search is near its end. There are some more revelations to come, but apparently no more Dr Who. At MBW in December 2018 he advised that he was still chasing audition prints, but whilst there may theoretically be some DW still to find in these there probably won’t be any complete stories. A few things are worth noting. The first is that it’s now over 7 years since the last DW recovery. PM got into the store in Jos in late 2011 and found Enemy and Web. The second is that DW was disproportionately represented in PM’s recoveries. There are some who promote the “DW was special” theory, but it wasn’t, it was just one of hundreds, if not thousands, of shows - one offs, series, serials, etc - that Enterprises sold around the world. The exact number of PM’s recoveries is uncertain but the nine DW - plus Web 3 - are a decent percentage of that. The third is that a few other DW MEs are now known to be out there. Web 3 existed in late 2011 and it’s been subsequently confirmed that there are another one or two, although the prospects for their return are uncertain. So, where can further recoveries going to come from? PM recovered the two Morecambe and Wises from a cinema in Sierra Leone and advised at MBW that he’d learnt that TV programmes could have been shown in cinemas there. It must be noted that, despite exhaustive investigations, no unauthorised showings of DW have been substantiated; the Macra Terror in New Zealand is possibly the most credible, although there are alternative possibilities for what was shown. It must be noted that even if Macra Terror was shown the chances of recovering prints are minimal. I think that further recoveries from broadcasters can probably now be ruled out. This is because many/most have relocated since they showed missing DW and anyone who’s moved office knows that it’s invariably accompanied by a clearout. It’s only places like Nigeria where PM could find prints that had sat on a shelf for decades and if Snowmen and Wheel had survived in Nigeria PM would have surely recovered them by now. The other avenue is collectors and I think this is now about the best source for recoveries. As far as I’m aware the only places where MEs have been recovered from collectors are the UK and NZ, and these were rescued from being destroyed. It’s worth noting what the circumstances for prints getting to collectors are. It has to be somewhere where prints are being destroyed and there is a community of 16mm film collectors or enthusiasts. There is no obvious reason for someone to pick up a 16mm film can unless it’s of interest to them, someone they know or they think they can sell it. It’s a very tiny needle and a very large haystack. For me,having complete stories really over-rides any desire to get more back.Yes, it's wonderful if more were to be recovered, but having a complete copy of what must be one of the best,re-appraised stories -Enemy of the World and before that, for me, the Ultimate Troughton story-Tomb of the Cybermen really satisfies me.If nothing more is found, I'm more than happy with what we've got and what has been found so far. Enemy and Web are monumental and Tomb the peak. Hours and hours of pure enjoyment.Why spend time ruminating over PM's and the Restoration Team's subsequent activities? And the forthcoming animations are so exiting. Watching the colour Power animation at the moment and I love it!
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 21:18:27 GMT
It looks like Philip Morris’ search is near its end. There are some more revelations to come, but apparently no more Dr Who. At MBW in December 2018 he advised that he was still chasing audition prints, but whilst there may theoretically be some DW still to find in these there probably won’t be any complete stories. A few things are worth noting. The first is that it’s now over 7 years since the last DW recovery. PM got into the store in Jos in late 2011 and found Enemy and Web. The second is that DW was disproportionately represented in PM’s recoveries. There are some who promote the “DW was special” theory, but it wasn’t, it was just one of hundreds, if not thousands, of shows - one offs, series, serials, etc - that Enterprises sold around the world. The exact number of PM’s recoveries is uncertain but the nine DW - plus Web 3 - are a decent percentage of that. The third is that a few other DW MEs are now known to be out there. Web 3 existed in late 2011 and it’s been subsequently confirmed that there are another one or two, although the prospects for their return are uncertain. So, where can further recoveries going to come from? PM recovered the two Morecambe and Wises from a cinema in Sierra Leone and advised at MBW that he’d learnt that TV programmes could have been shown in cinemas there. It must be noted that, despite exhaustive investigations, no unauthorised showings of DW have been substantiated; the Macra Terror in New Zealand is possibly the most credible, although there are alternative possibilities for what was shown. It must be noted that even if Macra Terror was shown the chances of recovering prints are minimal. I think that further recoveries from broadcasters can probably now be ruled out. This is because many/most have relocated since they showed missing DW and anyone who’s moved office knows that it’s invariably accompanied by a clearout. It’s only places like Nigeria where PM could find prints that had sat on a shelf for decades and if Snowmen and Wheel had survived in Nigeria PM would have surely recovered them by now. The other avenue is collectors and I think this is now about the best source for recoveries. As far as I’m aware the only places where MEs have been recovered from collectors are the UK and NZ, and these were rescued from being destroyed. It’s worth noting what the circumstances for prints getting to collectors are. It has to be somewhere where prints are being destroyed and there is a community of 16mm film collectors or enthusiasts. There is no obvious reason for someone to pick up a 16mm film can unless it’s of interest to them, someone they know or they think they can sell it. It’s a very tiny needle and a very large haystack. For me,having complete stories really over-rides any desire to get more back.Yes, it's wonderful if more were to be recovered, but having a complete copy of what must be one of the best,re-appraised stories -Enemy of the World and before that, for me, the Ultimate Troughton story-Tomb of the Cybermen really satisfies me.If nothing more is found, I'm more than happy with what we've got and what has been found so far. Enemy and Web are monumental and Tomb the peak. Hours and hours of pure enjoyment.Why spend time ruminating over PM's and the Restoration Team's subsequent activities? And the forthcoming animations are so exiting. Watching the colour Power animation at the moment and I love it! I agree with virtually everything you write 😀 Complete stories are best, the odd episode of Enemy we had wasn’t really very good, a typical bit of “padding”, but it’s certainly gone up in my estimation and shows what a first rate actor PT was. I’d like to get Web 3 back as that would enable the telesnap restoration to be dumped. However, complete stories are only really going to come from TV stations - there have been several from Nigeria plus Tomb, and I also enjoy that 😀 We know that there are one or two more, besides Web 3, out there and I’d certainly like to see them.
|
|
|
Post by Jaspal Cheema on Jan 20, 2019 21:20:03 GMT
By the way,any idea about what's happening to the Web Special Edition?After the Enemy SE,a Web SE seems to have gone off the radar.Is it possible PM may be trying to get Web 3 back before an SE comes out or is an animation on the cards?Interesting that no information is forthcoming...
|
|
|
Post by John Wall on Jan 20, 2019 21:38:04 GMT
By the way,any idea about what's happening to the Web Special Edition?After the Enemy SE,a Web SE seems to have gone off the radar.Is it possible PM may be trying to get Web 3 back before an SE comes out or is an animation on the cards?Interesting that no information is forthcoming... When we learnt that Web 3 had been spotted but then gone AWOL that explained why Enemy was released on DVD first - PM was hoping to get it back. I’m not sure how much animation would cost but in the absence of the real thing that’s the best justification for a SE.
|
|
|
Post by zaqwilson on Jan 20, 2019 22:28:12 GMT
We wait, hope.... and wait some more. Yes all places that purchased Dw are pretty much checked. If any more are in the wild, they are likely in forgotten storage. Private collections might yield a few. I can imagine dumpster divers have aquire some here and there, even if they don't really care about film. Humans are like packrats, some will take and keep things even if they have no need.
We are nearing the end, scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
I believe there are more, but the ME count will likely come to rest in the 80s when all is done.
Who knows, maybe a forgotten storage locker in Costa Rica will yield a story with everyone saying "how did they get here?"
I am hopeful, but won't hold my breath.
|
|
|
Post by Luke Sherlaw on Jan 20, 2019 22:40:53 GMT
I'd agree with the sentiment that any story that is getting an animation, such as Macra, must have low hopes of being recovered.
When PM's search is concluded, I think all we'll get from then on is orphan episodes. Any story completions will be from serials missing very few episodes like Web of fear or Tenth Planet. We can kiss goodbye to the likes of Power of Fury being completed for example.
I have to say, with absolutely no foundation whatsoever, that my guess would be there could be as many as 8-10 missing episodes in the hands of collectors, but we'll probably get to see under half that amount. Why do I think this?: We've already seen numerous example of episodes in private hands: I believe there are more in the hands of unwitting collectors, maybe 4-5. The other lot would be from hoarders: people like the person who stole WoF 3 who have dedicated a lot of time and energy into sourcing and tracking down missing material. I'm a pesimistic person but this is one area where I'm unusually optimistic, because I've dealt with people with rabid interests in the past who will stop at nothing to get something.
|
|