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Post by Natalie Sinead on Jan 10, 2019 8:03:26 GMT
I'm just curious at to why some are so insistent that the three surviving prints of DMP are from anything other then the 11-episode set made for Australia?
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Post by John Wall on Jan 10, 2019 9:37:09 GMT
It’s important to note that some conjure up scenarios for the sole reason of increasing the number of prints struck.
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Post by simonashby on Jan 10, 2019 13:10:18 GMT
Some people just want to will these episodes into existence. By creating a technically plausible scenario, they back up their underlying desire and belief that they must somewhere exist - they must!
And whilst it is technically possible that more prints were struck, no-one can definitely know either way based on current sources. But because no-one can definitively put an end to speculation (i.e. lack of comprehensive official records) people will continue to let their imagination run away despite that reality offers nothing to back it up.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jan 10, 2019 13:17:18 GMT
I used to believe that there could have been more than one set of prints struck, but even then, I did not consider it a very likely prospect. The reason why was because I didn't have all of the information to make an accurate view at the time. The sheer number of episodes from the serial that have been recovered is likely to be the key reason for speculation regarding further sets of prints.
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Post by charles drummel on Jan 10, 2019 15:05:41 GMT
I think it's technically possible, but not something that's really worth worrying about. Damian Shanahan has said on a podcast, some years ago now, that he has been trying to access a secure archive in Australia. At some point, he or someone will be able to assess whether DMP is present there. It would be pretty miraculous if there was actually a second set of prints from the three that have turned up, as opposed to those three having been returned to Australia. But I think it's extremely unlikely that there are two sets floating around 'in the wild' with collectors. I think at some point we will get some final closure from Damian (or another colleague). As Damian says, there's a very slim, but non-zero chance there. Surely not worth getting ones hopes up over!
If there's anything to hope for, perhaps it's that The Traitors is out there with a collector, somewhere. Perhaps even one that Paul alluded to on a different podcast.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 10, 2019 17:17:39 GMT
Bottom line: Nobody knows for sure, but the most likely source was the unpurchased Aussie prints. Due to circumstances, its very odd that 3 of 11 (or 12) survived out of one set, where as power & evil fared much worse with better odds. Unless a duplicate ep (that can be verified as not an 80s dupe) shows up, we really have to assume one one set struck. Since all 3 recovered were in Britain, it is wise to assume the set made it back from down under. If one or more eps is ever found down there it will get more complicated. I would not be supersized if another ep of DMP is uncovered though.
In reading back posts through the years, it seems some believe there were 2 sets. One sent to Australia, one set retained and the blue peter clips were from the supposed second batch. Don't remember reading any real reasoning behind it besides what John Wall mentions frequently.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jan 10, 2019 17:44:37 GMT
In reading back posts through the years, it seems some believe there were 2 sets. One sent to Australia, one set retained and the blue peter clips were from the supposed second batch. Don't remember reading any real reasoning behind it besides what John Wall mentions frequently. I think the reasoning was that there was the anticipation of sales for the new Season 3 serials based on the Season 2 countries, pre-empting potential sales by striking an additional set of prints in readiness for distribution that ultimately would go unused.
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Post by Greg H on Jan 10, 2019 18:50:39 GMT
Damian Shanahan has said on a podcast, some years ago now, that he has been trying to access a secure archive in Australia. At some point, he or someone will be able to assess whether DMP is present there. Interesting. I do not recall having heard that before. DMP aside it would be extremely interesting to know if there was ever any progress on this as lots of old silent era films apparently finished their lives down under. I always live in hope of more lost silent era films coming to light. Does anyone have any further info on what happened with this particular lead, just out of interest rather than any expectation of any specific prints?
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 10, 2019 20:17:06 GMT
In reading back posts through the years, it seems some believe there were 2 sets. One sent to Australia, one set retained and the blue peter clips were from the supposed second batch. Don't remember reading any real reasoning behind it besides what John Wall mentions frequently. I think the reasoning was that there was the anticipation of sales for the new Season 3 serials based on the Season 2 countries, pre-empting potential sales by striking an additional set of prints in readiness for distribution that ultimately would go unused. This makes sense. Doubt the time and money would be spent in anticipation, but I follow the reasoning. TY for feedback.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 10, 2019 20:24:57 GMT
Damian Shanahan has said on a podcast, some years ago now, that he has been trying to access a secure archive in Australia. At some point, he or someone will be able to assess whether DMP is present there. Interesting. I do not recall having heard that before. DMP aside it would be extremely interesting to know if there was ever any progress on this as lots of old silent era films apparently finished their lives down under. I always live in hope of more lost silent era films coming to light. Does anyone have any further info on what happened with this particular lead, just out of interest rather than any expectation of any specific prints? I would love to hear more about this. I have long suspected that private collections "Secure Archives" might be a gold mine for a few random finds, not just DW, but they are likely to be inaccessible. A collector could have corralled quite treasure trove over the years and the existence of said collection might not be known publicly. Without friends, friends of friends, chance encounter & conversations, rare, unique, one-of-a-kind, and only copy left in existence items might remain unknown until someones basement gets cleaned out after there gone and the library at the landfill claims them...
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Post by charles drummel on Jan 10, 2019 20:47:32 GMT
www.radiofreeskaro.com/2014/02/16/radio-free-skaro-408-the-case-of-the-missing-episodes/Slight bit of clarification: In the above podcast, he discusses tracking remaining censor material that moved from place to place, and the possibility of DMP being retained in Australia (if indeed it was grouped with censor material itself). The podcast was recorded two days after the 2014 "Gallifrey One" talk by Roberts, Preddle, and Shanahan, and covered many of the same topics, but recording was not permitted at the One panel itself. It was there that he was reported to have called the vault "secure" rather than the podcast.
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Post by zaqwilson on Jan 10, 2019 21:25:24 GMT
Thank you for the link and clarification!
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Post by Natalie Sinead on Jan 11, 2019 10:10:11 GMT
where as power & evil fared much worse with better odds. <iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 4.840000000000003px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_799317" scrolling="no"></iframe>
<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_77651263" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 85px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_60562412" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="4.840000000000003" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 4.84px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: 85px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_97283347" scrolling="no"></iframe> What "better odds"? Marco Polo sold better than Power and Evil but since more people care about Daleks...
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jan 12, 2019 23:13:29 GMT
I think the reasoning was that there was the anticipation of sales for the new Season 3 serials based on the Season 2 countries, pre-empting potential sales by striking an additional set of prints in readiness for distribution that ultimately would go unused. This makes sense. Doubt the time and money would be spent in anticipation, but I follow the reasoning. TY for feedback. The theory does not come from mere unresearched idle speculation as some would lead people to believe. From what I understand of it all, The DMP print returns lack certain physical details that other Australia returns have that distinguish them. Stickers, leaders etc. Not definitive proof, but enough to ask the legitamite question of why are they different than other Australian returns? Perhaps because they are not? A: If the DMP prints are different prints than the Australian prints, which would explain the differences, why make two? The best reason for a second set, also, as stated above in the quote; anticipation of sales. What was not mentioned in the quote is there was a very short turnaround for certain season two countries, as they were broadcasting the same episodes within weeks of each other. If Australia approved DMP, and the BBC had no reason to believe they wouldn't, a second set would be needed quickly to prevent broadcast delays if they were picked up in those countries. With Australia's rejection it pretty much condemned DMP to never be broadcasted outside the UK. And without the Daleks being a hook for Season three sales, it could be a factor why it wasn't bought in those respected countries. B: The differences in the DMP prints is; Australia Rejected it outright, and just sent it back as is, and didn't bother with changing leaders or lables... Also a valid arguement. I hope some evidence will come forward to confirm it either way. If we knew for sure that there was only one set, then Damian's search ,mentioned here, could be simplified drasticlly. Do I personally believe that the surviving prints of DMP are from the Australia returns, or not? Truth is, I do not know either way. However I'm not going to close my mind to the possibility as there is evidence enough to ask the question "could there be two different sets?" If Damian finds them in Australia, then that would be fantastic proof. I personally would not hold my breath though.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jan 13, 2019 0:05:33 GMT
This makes sense. Doubt the time and money would be spent in anticipation, but I follow the reasoning. TY for feedback. The theory does not come from mere unresearched idle speculation as some would lead people to believe. From what I understand of it all, The DMP print returns lack certain physical details that other Australia returns have that distinguish them. Stickers, leaders etc. Not definitive proof, but enough to ask the legitamite question of why are they different than other Australian returns? Perhaps because they are not? A: If the DMP prints are different prints than the Australian prints, which would explain the differences, why make two? The best reason for a second set, also, as stated above in the quote; anticipation of sales. What was not mentioned in the quote is there was a very short turnaround for certain season two countries, as they were broadcasting the same episodes within weeks of each other. If Australia approved DMP, and the BBC had no reason to believe they wouldn't, a second set would be needed quickly to prevent broadcast delays if they were picked up in those countries. With Australia's rejection it pretty much condemned DMP to never be broadcasted outside the UK. And without the Daleks being a hook for Season three sales, it could be a factor why it wasn't bought in those respected countries. B: The differences in the DMP prints is; Australia Rejected it outright, and just sent it back as is, and didn't bother with changing leaders or lables... Also a valid arguement. I hope some evidence will come forward to confirm it either way. If we knew for sure that there was only one set, then Damian's search ,mentioned here, could be simplified drasticlly. Do I personally believe that the surviving prints of DMP are from the Australia returns, or not? Truth is, I do not know either way. However I'm not going to close my mind to the possibility as there is evidence enough to ask the question "could there be two different sets?" If Damian finds them in Australia, then that would be fantastic proof. I personally would not hold my breath though. Even Sherlock Holmes' old maxim covers both options there: 'once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth'.
Australia was the only country likely to have more than one set of prints made for each episode, but this would surely be dependent on them being certain of a broadcast (or else why bother making them). So Masterplan could only ever have had the one set of prints made since it was never going to be broadcast.
There was a story last year about duplicate film cans for Doctor Who episodes being found in Australia (42todoomsday.wordpress.com/2018/02/27/duplicate-doctor-who-prints-in-australia-is-this-proof/). What's particularly interesting about this is that despite the cans remaining without the films, it is supposed that Australia sent all its film cans with films inside to Britain in 1975 when the serials were withdrawn.
The BroaDWcast website mentions Australia’s dual screenings of episodes (especially during 1966), stating that more than one set of prints must have been circulated to make this possible. It couldn’t have been the case that these were sourced from another country because, as seen in the pictures, the side of the can reads 'MEL DUP', which I infer to be 'Melbourne Duplicate'. In other words, purposely made sets of prints for Australia.
The owner states that ‘There was only a handful of the larger cans in the lot I saw, and they were empty – no records, and no film. All the films had gone to the dump’. If the films were returned to Britain, how could they simultaneously have gone to an Australian landfill? It’s possible to suggest that the BBC, not willing to be inundated, requested one set back but requested that the others be destroyed in Australia – but why when all could have been destroyed in Australia? Were the other sets simply forgotten about? I’d like to see if anything more can come of this.
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