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Post by paul carney on Dec 29, 2018 22:45:12 GMT
Mr Vanezis I am always impressed at your commitment to archive TV and the depth of your knowledge. Perhaps this forum is the wrong place for me to have made a political point but I am from an Irish background and many members of my family were deeply affected by the troubles which did not start in August 1969. Tensions had been increasing for decades but the problems were constantly ignored by successive governments. My main point was astonishment that even then the BBC would broadcast a highly popular entertainment programme with any mention of the IRA. It demonstrated how out of touch the national broadcasting channel were with the feelings of a whole community of people at that time. I also have an Irish grandmother and links to family in Galway. You might be right that it was misjudged at the time. However, that was fifty years ago and we can all look back at it with the benefit of our knowledge of history and our knowledge of television. The very fact that we can now see this programme means that we can have this debate about it. But there is little point in being offended by it now and regardless of the IRA mention, it's still a funny piece of television. It certainly isn't entirely the mis-step that some think it is. But my main point is that it was made for the audience then, not the audience now. However, we can still laugh at it, or shake our fists at it depending on how you feel about it. But don't be offended by it. Paul Paul there was an audience then that would have been offended.The programme was broadcast across the entire UK and people living on the eastern side of the Republic could easily pick up the BBC signal.I can see your point about the use of the word "offended" after so much time, but it was an emotional response to an issue which still causes problems to this day.
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Post by John Green on Dec 29, 2018 22:50:12 GMT
The impression I get is that the discrimination,gerrymandering,etc. that were going on in Northern Ireland were pretty much unknown to most people in England. Didn't Irish civil rights activist more-or-less have to MeToo and adapt the tactics of the American opponents of Jim Crow? With regard to comedy portrayals of Eire,we can be sure that few films or TV shows,portrayed the extent of cruelty against women and illegitimate kids which was a feature of the country until quite recently. Though you'll recall that part of the plot of The Quiet Man is about the non-payment of a dowry (though that's eventually disposed of),and that when John Wayne is dragging his wife,who's denying him his conjugal rights,through the meadows,a local dam gives him a stick,with admonishions to lay into Maureen O'Hara with it.
Despite everything,I quite like the film!
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Post by John Wall on Dec 29, 2018 23:29:17 GMT
Paul is right, these shows are of their time and should be treated as such.
A lot is said about the ‘snowflake’ generation and some of the young seem determined to shut out things they don’t like or which might offend them. Heaven knows how they’ll cope when they get out into the real world and have to deal with real people - there won’t be a “safe space” for them to retreat into.
To some extent the classic/archive film/TV community - i.e., the folks here - should be (way) above that. When you’re into that - and many here watch Talking Pictures TV - you get an unrivalled understanding of social history and can see how things have changed, and not always for the better, within less than a lifetime. I’m a few years older than Paul - but possibly with a little more hair - and some of the things I used to enjoy would now......
I’ve been going to MBW since the beginning - I’ve only missed a few - and not everything is brilliant, there are some things that might have been better if they’d stayed lost!
What we have here is an important part of the M&W story, They were already stars in the 60s and had made three movies before moving (back) to the BBC, with Sid and Dick. Eric had a heart attack after their first BBC season and as the future was then uncertain Sid and Dick moved on. Fortunately Eric recovered and John Ammonds brought in Eddie Braben - the rest is history.
We can now, as we have a quarter of that season, get an idea of the prospects for M&W at the BBC with longer shows - an increase beyond 30 minutes was planned - with Sid and,Dick. Immediately before the two episodes was an edited version of the 1971 Christmas show throughout which I laughed a lot. I subsequently laughed, although not as much, suggesting that without the change in writers M&W would not have reached the heights they did in the 70s at the BBC - shows that still make me laugh uncontrollably.
So, let’s celebrate being able to see more of one of the best ever comedy double acts, although not at their peak, and thank all those who enabled us to see it very close to how it was originally transmitted.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Dec 30, 2018 0:27:08 GMT
Paul there was an audience then that would have been offended.The programme was broadcast across the entire UK and people living on the eastern side of the Republic could easily pick up the BBC signal.I can see your point about the use of the word "offended" after so much time, but it was an emotional response to an issue which still causes problems to this day. Paul, Please don't think I'm having a go at you, god forbid. I just think that these things have to be judged in the context of when they were made and the sensibilities of the 1968 audience. When Phil was interviewed on Breakfast about this, they brought up the subject of it not being politically correct. It was also put to Dick Fiddy when he appeared on the BBC news show. He said that we live in more enlightened times (which we do). Phil said that in the context of the programme as a whole, there was nothing wrong with it. Both are right and I do understand the sensitivities. But the passage of time allows us to make a judgement about them now and I think John Wall has outlined the background rather better than me. We want to find these things so we can re-experience the programmes of the past because we're annoyed that they were destroyed in the first place. I personally don't believe that we should keep every second of what is broadcast. That simply isn't practical. But we should keep the programmes and we most certainly should celebrate when they get re-shown, especially when they get a high profile slot on BBC2 and when some money is put into restoring it. It doesn't happen often enough. Paul
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Post by Richard Marple on Dec 31, 2018 17:33:53 GMT
A fair bit of the Irish sketch was the usual "comedy Irish" fare that wasn't particularly offensive.
I know Allo Allo was criticised for trivialising the role of the French Resistance, but all almost all nationalities were lampooned so it balanced things out.
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,854
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Post by RWels on Jan 1, 2019 22:08:40 GMT
I know Allo Allo was criticised for trivialising the role of the French Resistance, but all almost all nationalities were lampooned so it balanced things out. Oh I assure you I don't find anything wrong with Allo Allo. It's not as if the British came off especially clever whenever they appeared...(Usually with a double "Helloo!!" from some unlikely hiding place.)
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Post by richardwoods on Jan 1, 2019 22:14:20 GMT
Even Dad's Army was controversial when it started. A lot of former Home Guard people found fun at their expense difficult to accept.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jan 1, 2019 22:17:18 GMT
Even Dad's Army was controversial when it started. A lot of former Home Guard people found fun at their expense difficult to accept. Self-mockery is one of the things that made British comedy great! This is why the US remake ALWAYS fails at the pilot episode...
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Post by Richard Marple on Jan 2, 2019 13:25:14 GMT
Even Dad's Army was controversial when it started. A lot of former Home Guard people found fun at their expense difficult to accept. Self-mockery is one of the things that made British comedy great! This is why the US remake ALWAYS fails at the pilot episode... Yes I heard Croft & Perry had to be careful when writing the early episodes of Dads Army, though Jimmy Perry based a lot of characters & events on his time as a Home Guard. Americans seem to have gotten better at self mocking humour, there's plenty in the Big Bang Theory.
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Post by garygraham on Jan 2, 2019 13:28:47 GMT
I seem to remember some sort of IRA reference in the 1967 film The Jokers starring Oliver Reed and Michael Crawford? It wasn't unusual. All the atrocities in England in the 1970s put a different perspective on it. I'm very much in favour of archive material being shown unedited.
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Post by John Green on Jan 2, 2019 18:30:38 GMT
The slightly comic reference (and accents) in the 1960 Jack Hawkins League of Gentlemen film came as a bit of a shock the first time I watched it. The thieves steal arms,etc. from an army store that's under the command of Gerald Harper,and are rather keen that the IRA should be believed responsible.
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