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Post by Sue Butcher on Dec 10, 2018 1:12:53 GMT
Why would he hold on to them? Because if it's an orphan episode, fans would demand a release, but the BBC might prefer to wait a while in case more turn up. Because it would be more newsworthy and better publicity if a larger find was revealed. Because questions of how and where the material was found might prevent a further recovery. Because the film is decayed and it will take a lot of time and money to restore. I can go on. I admit it's speculation, but we'd had to wait before, we could be waiting now for all we know.
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Post by Robert Lia on Dec 10, 2018 4:27:28 GMT
Its also possible they have found an orphaned episode or two and what better way to release it to satisfy the fans is to release those episodes as extras on a DVD where the whole story has been animated ?
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Post by John Wall on Dec 10, 2018 10:18:33 GMT
Why would he hold on to them? Because if it's an orphan episode, fans would demand a release, but the BBC might prefer to wait a while in case more turn up. Because it would be more newsworthy and better publicity if a larger find was revealed. Because questions of how and where the material was found might prevent a further recovery. Because the film is decayed and it will take a lot of time and money to restore. I can go on. I admit it's speculation, but we'd had to wait before, we could be waiting now for all we know. They don’t have to be announced, look at Airlock and UM2. Again, it’s just more ad hoc explanations to try and avoid the obvious conclusion.
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Post by scotttelfer on Dec 10, 2018 11:25:58 GMT
If he had found an episode or two and presented them to the BBC before the animation process had gotten under way, absolutely. But the fundamental problem with that is we have no evidence whatsoever that he showed anything to the BBC in that time. If he had found material and returned it to the BBC, why are we only hearing about it now? Surely there would have been something returned in the five year period? Rather simply put, he went radio silent for five years and has now presented the BBC with at the very least some of the results of his search (if not all of it). However, with the limited information we hold today he did this in 2018, not 2017 or earlier (which would be necessary to interfere with The Macra Terror animation). If in future we get information that contradicts that then so be it, but at the moment we have no evidence of a conspiracy so must take it at face value, especially when ignoring it appears to contradict what we know otherwise.
Why not go with the obvious answer? Firstly, if he’d found any DW MEs why would he hold onto them? This a question I’ve been asking for years, and the only reasons given are ad hoc explanations to try and explain why we don’t know about them. At the risk of sounding like a stuck gramophone record there’s absolutely nothing in it for him as he’s not the copyright holder. As a fan he’d, presumably, want to see the episode(s) and there are people like Paul Vanezis, Mark Ayres, etc to do the work and storage facilities at the BBC to keep the print(s) in. All of that has a cost, let Auntie foot the bill. There’s no chance of a finders fee, etc, etc. The answer, unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat next Saturday, is that he hasn’t found any more DW since Enemy and Web. That’s not entirely surprising as Enemy and Web only survivied because they’d been sat on a shelf in an out of the way place in a third world country for forty five years - a pretty rare combination of circumstances.
If you apply that logic to Doctor Who, it extends to absolutely everything else as well. Five years of further searching turned up a half dozen comedies and that's it. Why would he hold on to these episodes for so long? Because information getting out has compromised his search in the past. Now that he has finished his search and all the material he has found is secure he can begin the process of returning it to the BBC.
You seem to be under the impression that I expect he's holding on to the material in perpetuity out of some sort of desire for financial gain. That's not in the slightest what I am suggesting. He was spooked by Web 3 so held on to his recoveries until the search was concluded, now that has happened he is returning his findings in full to the BBC and other broadcasters and institutions. That seems perfectly sensible to me, he was going to return them eventually, if the films are safe then the time pressure is no longer on those films and he can focus his attention on other avenues.
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Post by John Wall on Dec 10, 2018 13:03:18 GMT
Why not go with the obvious answer? Firstly, if he’d found any DW MEs why would he hold onto them? This a question I’ve been asking for years, and the only reasons given are ad hoc explanations to try and explain why we don’t know about them. At the risk of sounding like a stuck gramophone record there’s absolutely nothing in it for him as he’s not the copyright holder. As a fan he’d, presumably, want to see the episode(s) and there are people like Paul Vanezis, Mark Ayres, etc to do the work and storage facilities at the BBC to keep the print(s) in. All of that has a cost, let Auntie foot the bill. There’s no chance of a finders fee, etc, etc. The answer, unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat next Saturday, is that he hasn’t found any more DW since Enemy and Web. That’s not entirely surprising as Enemy and Web only survivied because they’d been sat on a shelf in an out of the way place in a third world country for forty five years - a pretty rare combination of circumstances. If you apply that logic to Doctor Who, it extends to absolutely everything else as well. Five years of further searching turned up a half dozen comedies and that's it. Why would he hold on to these episodes for so long? Because information getting out has compromised his search in the past. Now that he has finished his search and all the material he has found is secure he can begin the process of returning it to the BBC. You seem to be under the impression that I expect he's holding on to the material in perpetuity out of some sort of desire for financial gain. That's not in the slightest what I am suggesting. He was spooked by Web 3 so held on to his recoveries until the search was concluded, now that has happened he is returning his findings in full to the BBC and other broadcasters and institutions. That seems perfectly sensible to me, he was going to return them eventually, if the films are safe then the time pressure is no longer on those films and he can focus his attention on other avenues.
We don’t know when things were found. There’s no evidence that that anything has been compromised. He discovered Enemy and Web in late 2011 but Web 3 had gone by the time he was actually able to get his hands on them. Nobody knew anything about that until a telesnap reconstruction was presented. Restoring those two M&Ws wouldn’t have been a trivial exercise and would have had to have been approved and budgeted for. All we’ve got are increasingly desperate attempts to avoid the obvious conclusion. I’ll reoeat what I’ve been saying fir years. What do you do when you’ve found something unique, whether it be Basil Brush, M&W or Dr Who? It’s very important to remember that if something has been stored in constant, although perhaps not ideal, conditions it probably won’t have deteriorated very much - remove it and change the conditions and that’s when the problems can start. The absolutely first priority, whatever the material, is to get it checked, cleaned and stored in ideal conditions - and there’s a cost to that. Again, and at the risk of repeatedly sounding like a stuck gramophone record, when you’re not the copyright holder you can’t justify the cost. So, you pass anything straight onto the likes of Pail Vanezis.
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
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Post by Richard Develyn on Dec 10, 2018 15:02:22 GMT
Well, IMO, Phillip Morris will announce whatever he's found, if anything, when he think his job is done.
Given the theft of Web 3 from under his nose, he's not going to tell anyone anything about what he's doing until he has nothing to lose by doing so.
Richard
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Post by John Wall on Dec 10, 2018 16:32:25 GMT
Well, IMO, Phillip Morris will announce whatever he's found, if anything, when he think his job is done. Given the theft of Web 3 from under his nose, he's not going to tell anyone anything about what he's doing until he has nothing to lose by doing so. Richard Realistically the time that’s elapsed means that there are few, if any, places still to check. However, we’ll get more information on Saturday.
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Richard Develyn
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Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
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Post by Richard Develyn on Dec 10, 2018 16:53:38 GMT
Well, IMO, Phillip Morris will announce whatever he's found, if anything, when he think his job is done. Given the theft of Web 3 from under his nose, he's not going to tell anyone anything about what he's doing until he has nothing to lose by doing so. Richard Realistically the time that’s elapsed means that there are few, if any, places still to check. However, we’ll get more information on Saturday. A long time ago, I think in the 90s, Ian Levine in an interview recorded for one of the early DVD releases, stated that he thought it was very unlikely that we would find anything else now, using a very similar argument. This led to a big argument on rec.arts.drwho between myself and others, where I insisted that Ian, who was the equivalent of Phillip Morris in those days, although doubtlessly having worked hard at getting episodes back, could not necessarily operate in all the avenues that such a hunt might demand. I'd done a little bit of research myself at the time and the message that I was hearing was that people in foreign tv stations weren't going to put themselves out for you looking in their film cupboards if they didn't know you from Adam. The basic argument against me at the time was - if Ian Levine says there's nothing more (of significance, anyway) to be found, then you should respect that. Phillip Morris may well have done everything that he can now, but that doesn't mean that someone else, with new contacts and opportunities, shouldn't be able to produce more finds in the future. Prior to Phillip's appearance on the scene we were in the doldrums, and after he's done everything he can I expect we'll be in the doldrums again. But you never know where and when the next major episode hunter might appear. I have always maintained this optimism. I have never seen the point of giving up. Richard
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Dec 10, 2018 17:40:06 GMT
There is, of course, that singularly ominous remark made by Paul Vanezis back in October when the M&W / Basil Brush / Steptoe recovery was announced on this thread (missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12616/recoveries-tiea), stating 'There is other material as part of this return which the BBC have yet to announce'. As far as I am aware, no further missing material has been announced by the BBC. He couldn't possibly have been referring to this Macra animation, surely? The animation was never missing - it is something new!
I can understand why people are sceptical of further returns, but the indication that PM made suggests he's turned his attention from television studios to places such as cinemas - not exactly the most obvious place to find missing episodes, but as in the above example, still capable of yielding results. As I said in a previous thread (missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12621/image-aztecs-film-tease-finds), the updates on the TIEA website indicate that all of the likeliest places have now been ruled out or else PM wouldn't have broken his notably long silence.
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Post by John Wall on Dec 10, 2018 17:57:16 GMT
Realistically the time that’s elapsed means that there are few, if any, places still to check. However, we’ll get more information on Saturday. A long time ago, I think in the 90s, Ian Levine in an interview recorded for one of the early DVD releases, stated that he thought it was very unlikely that we would find anything else now, using a very similar argument. This led to a big argument on rec.arts.drwho between myself and others, where I insisted that Ian, who was the equivalent of Phillip Morris in those days, although doubtlessly having worked hard at getting episodes back, could not necessarily operate in all the avenues that such a hunt might demand. I'd done a little bit of research myself at the time and the message that I was hearing was that people in foreign tv stations weren't going to put themselves out for you looking in their film cupboards if they didn't know you from Adam. The basic argument against me at the time was - if Ian Levine says there's nothing more (of significance, anyway) to be found, then you should respect that. Phillip Morris may well have done everything that he can now, but that doesn't mean that someone else, with new contacts and opportunities, shouldn't be able to produce more finds in the future. Prior to Phillip's appearance on the scene we were in the doldrums, and after he's done everything he can I expect we'll be in the doldrums again. But you never know where and when the next major episode hunter might appear. I have always maintained this optimism. I have never seen the point of giving up. Richard The big difference with PM is that he’s actually been and looked, that hadn’t been done before. A fair amount had previously come back from Nigeria but he still went and checked, and also talked to local people As I’ve previously noted broadcasters move location - I expect that’s happened in Hong Kong and Singapore - so knowing, as we do, where certain stories ended up becomes meaningless. Unless he confounds us on Saturday I reckon the best future hopes are any episodes, like “The Lion”, that “escaped” from foreign broadcasters and made it into private collections or any in private collections here.
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Post by John Wall on Dec 10, 2018 18:01:27 GMT
There is, of course, that singularly ominous remark made by Paul Vanezis back in October when the M&W / Basil Brush / Steptoe recovery was announced on this thread (missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12616/recoveries-tiea), stating 'There is other material as part of this return which the BBC have yet to announce'. As far as I am aware, no further missing material has been announced by the BBC. He couldn't possibly have been referring to this Macra animation, surely? The animation was never missing - it is something new!
I can understand why people are sceptical of further returns, but the indication that PM made suggests he's turned his attention from television studios to places such as cinemas - not exactly the most obvious place to find missing episodes, but as in the above example, still capable of yielding results. As I said in a previous thread (missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12621/image-aztecs-film-tease-finds), the updates on the TIEA website indicate that all of the likeliest places have now been ruled out or else PM wouldn't have broken his notably long silence. Why should the reference be to DW? DW was a very tiny percentage of overseas sales so is relatively unlikely to be recovered.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Dec 10, 2018 18:09:39 GMT
There is, of course, that singularly ominous remark made by Paul Vanezis back in October when the M&W / Basil Brush / Steptoe recovery was announced on this thread (missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12616/recoveries-tiea), stating 'There is other material as part of this return which the BBC have yet to announce'. As far as I am aware, no further missing material has been announced by the BBC. He couldn't possibly have been referring to this Macra animation, surely? The animation was never missing - it is something new!
I can understand why people are sceptical of further returns, but the indication that PM made suggests he's turned his attention from television studios to places such as cinemas - not exactly the most obvious place to find missing episodes, but as in the above example, still capable of yielding results. As I said in a previous thread (missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12621/image-aztecs-film-tease-finds), the updates on the TIEA website indicate that all of the likeliest places have now been ruled out or else PM wouldn't have broken his notably long silence. Why should the reference be to DW? DW was a very tiny percentage of overseas sales so is relatively unlikely to be recovered. I never said it was a reference to Doctor Who.
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Post by samnurden on Dec 10, 2018 22:54:03 GMT
All you can actually guarantee from this is that nothing of the Macra Terror has been found or is being kept a secret, and even if something was to show up, the BBC wouldn't announce it for like, ever and ever. Got to make the money off this release, and animation is super costly.
If anyone hands something of it in, expect to see an announcement of the recovered Macra episodes in 2089. I kid somewhat, but they seriously wouldn't announce something now and jeopardise their sales. It's kind of a double-edged sword, you get cool gaps filled in with animation, but chances of stuff from that serial being announced as a return drops pretty hard.
Might as well just announce to everyone- "Hey, we're pretty sure it's not coming back anytime soon if ever, and we don't have anything of it, either. so have the next best thing."
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Dec 11, 2018 13:49:12 GMT
The big difference with PM is that he’s actually been and looked, that hadn’t been done before. A fair amount had previously come back from Nigeria but he still went and checked, and also talked to local people Don't underestimate all the work that Ian did too, though, and others before him. I have always felt that major new finds would come out of personal contacts. I don't know how much of that kind of thing PM has, and how much of that kind of thing might come along in the future, but I still believe that there are opportunities along those lines. I think that Ian, from afar, and Phil, from much closer, have done what they can as an external hunter/researcher. The day that we find ourselves with, say, a Doctor Who fan who is as enthusiastic about missing episodes as we are, who happens to have a good friend or a sibling who works in the archive section of, say, Pakistani TV, then a new opportunity will present itself and we might get lucky. Richard
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Post by John Wall on Dec 11, 2018 16:32:12 GMT
The big difference with PM is that he’s actually been and looked, that hadn’t been done before. A fair amount had previously come back from Nigeria but he still went and checked, and also talked to local people Don't underestimate all the work that Ian did too, though, and others before him. I have always felt that major new finds would come out of personal contacts. I don't know how much of that kind of thing PM has, and how much of that kind of thing might come along in the future, but I still believe that there are opportunities along those lines. I think that Ian, from afar, and Phil, from much closer, have done what they can as an external hunter/researcher. The day that we find ourselves with, say, a Doctor Who fan who is as enthusiastic about missing episodes as we are, who happens to have a good friend or a sibling who works in the archive section of, say, Pakistani TV, then a new opportunity will present itself and we might get lucky. Richard I certainly hope nobody doubts Ian’s contribution - a lot of the Pertwees are with us in colour because of him and Sue Malden. The problem is that avenues are rapidly being exhausted. PM has built on what’s been done in the past by actually going to places in person - and this has paid dividends, not only with Enemy and Web but with M&W, Basil Brush, Harry Worth, etc. Personally I’m very happy with those as there is more to life than DW. It’s time to be realistic, and hopefully PM will be forthcoming as to where he’s been, etc, etc on Saturday.
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