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Post by garygraham on Oct 29, 2018 23:22:57 GMT
When companies like Network carry out a digital restoration do the restored digital masters eventually become the property of the copyright holder or does Network keep the rights in the actual restoration and ownership of the files?
I bought Department S and The Professionals IV on Blu-ray recently and the quality is astonishing (not keen on the end titles of Department S being remade, and I wonder why, but that's my only complaint).
Seeing the alarming way that a small section of the film from The Professionals has deteriorated I can imagination that there may not be many opportunities to unspool and transfer sections like that and doing so might even cause additional damage. I know from personal experience (albeit with nitrate film) that moving film from one place to another can itself sometimes trigger a rapid deterioration.
As we know from history, companies can go out of business. Digital is expensive to back up and needs migration every decade. So I just want to know whether these restorations are providing masters for the future?
Today I read a comment from someone saying that releases such as Kenny Everett should be on blu-ray despite the masters being standard definition VT. I think it's a good idea. What do you think?
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,861
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Post by RWels on Oct 29, 2018 23:33:18 GMT
When companies like Network carry out a digital restoration do the restored digital masters eventually become the property of the copyright holder or does Network keep the rights in the actual restoration and ownership of the files? I bought Department S and The Professionals IV on Blu-ray recently and the quality is astonishing (not keen on the end titles of Department S being remade, and I wonder why, but that's my only complaint). Seeing the alarming way that a small section of the film from The Professionals has deteriorated I can imagination that there may not be many opportunities to unspool and transfer sections like that and doing so might even cause additional damage. I know from personal experience (albeit with nitrate film) that moving film from one place to another can itself sometimes trigger a rapid deterioration. As we know from history, companies can go out of business. Digital is expensive to back up and needs migration every decade. So I just want to know whether these restorations are providing masters for the future? Today I read a comment from someone saying that releases such as Kenny Everett should be on blu-ray despite the masters being standard definition VT. I think it's a good idea. What do you think? Aren't you disappointed that they aren't on terrestrial television then?
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Post by PAUL WOOD on Oct 29, 2018 23:42:13 GMT
End titles of Deptartment S remade? Were they? I have Network DVD and BD sets and never noticed. Anyone got any info on this?
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Post by Marty Schultz on Oct 30, 2018 1:15:54 GMT
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Post by Peter Stirling on Oct 30, 2018 1:39:28 GMT
When companies like Network carry out a digital restoration do the restored digital masters eventually become the property of the copyright holder or does Network keep the rights in the actual restoration and ownership of the files? I bought Department S and The Professionals IV on Blu-ray recently and the quality is astonishing (not keen on the end titles of Department S being remade, and I wonder why, but that's my only complaint). Seeing the alarming way that a small section of the film from The Professionals has deteriorated I can imagination that there may not be many opportunities to unspool and transfer sections like that and doing so might even cause additional damage. I know from personal experience (albeit with nitrate film) that moving film from one place to another can itself sometimes trigger a rapid deterioration. As we know from history, companies can go out of business. Digital is expensive to back up and needs migration every decade. So I just want to know whether these restorations are providing masters for the future? Today I read a comment from someone saying that releases such as Kenny Everett should be on blu-ray despite the masters being standard definition VT. I think it's a good idea. What do you think? Many companies are archiving ( even digital masters) on new 35mm prints because it is a proven 100 year old medium and bypasses any digital changes that might come in the future, it is also an easy format to keep an eye on and check without the need for any electronic or mechanical aid. Programmes also originally made on 16mm (such as Inspector Morse,Midsomer Murders etc) have also been 'blown up' to 35mm for storage once the transfer to digital has been made. 'The Professionals' was always a grubby looking show even on first transmission but that gave it a certain charm. Not sure what the point is of a Blue Ray for a show originally made on 625 lines or less, but obviously restorations, reducing convergence errors etc can make it look very sharp these days.However if some of the high frequency information on the tape has deteriorated loosing detail then up-scaling is going to show it all up. .
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Post by Mark Tinkler on Oct 30, 2018 10:08:28 GMT
If a company pays for a restoration of a film or TV series, they will own that version of the title. So if it is made by (for example) a Blu-Ray company, and they have the rights to release the title on Blu-Ray, they can do that. But the folks that own the actual copyright in the title will have to deal with the Blu-Ray company to use it themselves anyway... They can give it free to the copyright owners if they like but not necessarily.
It's the same with say a film print - if some one owns a film print, they only own the celluloid not the copyrights recorded\filmed on it - and so the copyright owner has to deal with the print owner to access that print for any use. But of course outside of private showings, the owner of the print can't do anything with it...
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Post by garygraham on Oct 30, 2018 14:14:45 GMT
End titles of Deptartment S remade? Were they? I have Network DVD and BD sets and never noticed. Anyone got any info on this? I think I'm wrong! I've had a closer look, comparing the blu-ray to a broadcast on BBC2 25 years ago. The titles just looked too "perfect": level and perfectly spaced on the blu-ray. But I think that's down to the superb workmanship on these ITC programmes. It's staggering how the programmes look restored compared to that 1990s broadcast from a faded print. Attachments:
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Post by garygraham on Oct 30, 2018 14:42:43 GMT
Oct 30, 2018 1:39:28 GMT Peter Stirling said:
> 'The Professionals' was always a grubby looking show even on first transmission but that gave it a certain charm.
> Not sure what the point is of a Blue Ray for a show originally made on 625 lines or less
I bought the first couple of series of The Professionals on DVD as I didn't think there would be much difference as it was made on 16mm. I was wrong. I watch on a video projector and found the digital noise reduction on the first series excessive. You don't get that on the blu-ray. I'm not going to buy any more films or film originated programmes on DVD. Film isn't meant to be totally grainless, especially not 16mm.
Even with VT originals DVD compromises the quality too much sometimes. You rarely see anything at the maximum possible bitrate (two hours on a double layer DVD). Sometimes there are artifacts around titles and details are smoothed out. It isn't just "bad" things that are removed. It's an illusion of "quality". Those EMI 2001 cameras gave a grainy picture sometimes and it would be nice to see programmes in broadcast quality.
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Post by PAUL WOOD on Oct 30, 2018 15:02:10 GMT
End titles of Deptartment S remade? Were they? I have Network DVD and BD sets and never noticed. Anyone got any info on this? I think I'm wrong! I've had a closer look, comparing the blu-ray to a broadcast on BBC2 25 years ago. The titles just looked too "perfect": level and perfectly spaced on the blu-ray. But I think that's down to the superb workmanship on these ITC programmes. It's staggering how the programmes look restored compared to that 1990s broadcast from a faded print. View AttachmentView AttachmentYes...I think you're right about the superb workmanship. I can still remember the quality of the VHS releases from ITC Video - watchable, but not great overall. The DVD versions were a nice upgrade when they eventually came along. However, the BD versions are nothing short of stunning: a massive leap in quality.
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Post by garygraham on Oct 30, 2018 15:37:43 GMT
I think I'm wrong! I've had a closer look, comparing the blu-ray to a broadcast on BBC2 25 years ago. The titles just looked too "perfect": level and perfectly spaced on the blu-ray. But I think that's down to the superb workmanship on these ITC programmes. It's staggering how the programmes look restored compared to that 1990s broadcast from a faded print. Yes...I think you're right about the superb workmanship. I can still remember the quality of the VHS releases from ITC Video - watchable, but not great overall. The DVD versions were a nice upgrade when they eventually came along. However, the BD versions are nothing short of stunning: a massive leap in quality. I don't think they have ever been as enjoyable as they are now on so many different levels. The late sixties styles and colours. Glimpses of streets - a market in one episode with M&S in the background - and of course you can see all the faces, signs and buildings on blu-ray. Then there is Peter Wyngarde... From a modern perspective it's hard to believe his character wasn't an in joke. In one episode he is a biker and cracks a joke about "leather queens" and there are comments about Soho. Some of this may be unintentional but it's hilarious. Then for geeks there are the endless appearances of the studio backlot: the road with the poplar trees, the warehouses. And The Professionals is enjoyable for similar reasons. On blu-ray it almost looks like 35mm in places. The MkIV episodes seem to feature some well-known locations such as Trafalgar Square and again Soho. The crew do a good job of hiding the astonishment as people see "Bodie and Doyle" but not completely.
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Post by Peter Stirling on Oct 30, 2018 15:43:11 GMT
End titles of Deptartment S remade? Were they? I have Network DVD and BD sets and never noticed. Anyone got any info on this? I think I'm wrong! I've had a closer look, comparing the blu-ray to a broadcast on BBC2 25 years ago. The titles just looked too "perfect": level and perfectly spaced on the blu-ray. But I think that's down to the superb workmanship on these ITC programmes. It's staggering how the programmes look restored compared to that 1990s broadcast from a faded print. When the telecine started leaving the transmission room, ITC would send out their programmes on 1'VT which itself had come from a print that had also been duplicated, and so by the look of the 'faded' picture you see on the 90's editions this was probably due to analogue to analogue generation loss? and to top it all each generation would also add it's own artifacts. These digital days of course no (duplications from the master) tape or film prints are needed and they can get as near to the master as possible. During the 60s a company called 'Chambers & Partners' use to make just titles for film material, they were known for their quality workmanship.
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Post by garygraham on Oct 30, 2018 16:12:06 GMT
I think I'm wrong! I've had a closer look, comparing the blu-ray to a broadcast on BBC2 25 years ago. The titles just looked too "perfect": level and perfectly spaced on the blu-ray. But I think that's down to the superb workmanship on these ITC programmes. It's staggering how the programmes look restored compared to that 1990s broadcast from a faded print. When the telecine started leaving the transmission room, ITC would send out their programmes on 1'VT which itself had come from a print that had also been duplicated, and so by the look of the 'faded' picture you see on the 90's editions this was probably due to analogue to analogue generation loss? and to top it all each generation would also add it's own artifacts. These digital days of course no (duplications from the master) tape or film prints are needed and they can get as near to the master as possible. During the 60s a company called 'Chambers & Partners' use to make just titles for film material, they were known for their quality workmanship. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in 1993 the BBC was screening one of the prints from 1969. That looks like a colour cast due to age. You forget how murky they were but we just accepted it. Whenever there's a fade or a dissolve there's a further drop down in film generation for the optical effect. To save money they didn't duplicate the whole shot, they just cut in the effect section so the picture suddenly goes dupey looking. Those are still in the restoration but are less noticeable. The end titles look to have a bit of optical distortion on them at the bottom right which may have been from the telecine. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Peter Stirling on Oct 31, 2018 11:07:57 GMT
I wouldn't be at all surprised if in 1993 the BBC was screening one of the prints from 1969. That looks like a colour cast due to age. You forget how murky they were but we just accepted it. Whenever there's a fade or a dissolve there's a further drop down in film generation for the optical effect. To save money they didn't duplicate the whole shot, they just cut in the effect section so the picture suddenly goes dupey looking. Those are still in the restoration but are less noticeable. The end titles look to have a bit of optical distortion on them at the bottom right which may have been from the telecine. View AttachmentIf you were around at the time of switching from B/W 405 lines to 625 line colour..one of the highlights was watching an ITC series (or indeed some American shows) the pictures were absolutely stunning and presumably why they were oft repeated in the 70s...as a sort of showcase for colour TV. I revisited 'Randall & Hopkirk' on the BBC in the 90s and it still looked great,sometimes even better than what was on contemporary TV but perhaps someone had set the brightness level to '11' lol on the transfer process to tape?However what the 90's revisit showed up was the sometimes cheap production values and the wonderful cast deserved better (likewise Dept S). Network recently showed off their blue ray work on R&H and it will be interesting to see if those brightness levels have been sorted out. In the TV tape world on TPTV 'Public Eye' looks so much better than 'The Gentle Touch' IMHO which is somewhat murky in comparison, the location video scenes which in the 70s had colour fringing and distortion looks to have been restored and now look like they were shot yesterday.
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Post by garygraham on Oct 31, 2018 22:07:51 GMT
If you were around at the time of switching from B/W 405 lines to 625 line colour..one of the highlights was watching an ITC series (or indeed some American shows) the pictures were absolutely stunning and presumably why they were oft repeated in the 70s...as a sort of showcase for colour TV. I revisited 'Randall & Hopkirk' on the BBC in the 90s and it still looked great,sometimes even better than what was on contemporary TV but perhaps someone had set the brightness level to '11' lol on the transfer process to tape?However what the 90's revisit showed up was the sometimes cheap production values and the wonderful cast deserved better (likewise Dept S). Network recently showed off their blue ray work on R&H and it will be interesting to see if those brightness levels have been sorted out. In the TV tape world on TPTV 'Public Eye' looks so much better than 'The Gentle Touch' IMHO which is somewhat murky in comparison, the location video scenes which in the 70s had colour fringing and distortion looks to have been restored and now look like they were shot yesterday. We didn't get a colour TV until the late 1970s. I'm fairly sure we had a 625 line black and white TV from sometime in the 1960s. I remember a TV engineer coming to the house and adding an extra dial to the TV set at one point which must have involved drilling into the front of the case. I wonder if it was some sort of dual standard set: VHF and UHF and he added the dial for BBC2?
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Post by Peter Stirling on Nov 1, 2018 16:34:56 GMT
We didn't get a colour TV until the late 1970s. I'm fairly sure we had a 625 line black and white TV from sometime in the 1960s. I remember a TV engineer coming to the house and adding an extra dial to the TV set at one point which must have involved drilling into the front of the case. I wonder if it was some sort of dual standard set: VHF and UHF and he added the dial for BBC2? Yes..Some sets made prior to the BBC2 launch were '625 line ready' and had retrofit kits available to the dealer to install UHF/625 lines. The VHF dial was a clunky clicker, while the UHF dial was more like a radio dial in which you spun it until you could tune in a picture and also a 405/625 big button to push. After 64 all sets would be dual standard until around 70 and set makers were glad to see the back of them (time,money etc). Colour sets from 67 had for the majority done away with dials altogether and had the more familiar today selector knobs for each station.
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