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Post by ianphillips on Jun 9, 2018 2:32:11 GMT
So we have confirmation that there are films in the hands of private collectors. We know that Phil Morris has been tracking down leads left and right - to success or not, we don’t know. But my question is, what next? Let’s advance ten years into the future. Phil Morris’ hunt has ended and he’s returned any missing material he’s found. He’s left no stone unturned. We’ll say the BBC has somehow acquired the x number of episodes held by the private collectors referenced in the recent interview. We’ll also say that one way or another we’ve resolved the Macra Terror New Zealand thing. For 50 years the missing episode fandom has held onto hope in the knowledge that stones were still unturned and that entire serials could be lying unseen in some dusty tv station, but following the end of Phil Morris’ hunt he’ll have pursued all of the leads and visited all the countries. He’ll have at least located the private collectors that hold missing episodes if the episodes themselves have not necessarily been returned. If no stone has been left unturned then what’s the next step? If there’s nothing left to find then what do we search for? Sure, there might be one or two additional episodes in places that slipped under the radar, but at that point it’s just luck. There’s no initiative to be taken that could possibly locate the lost episode of Marco Polo that Billy Joe’s uncle’s friend’s brother bought at a yard sale in 1983 that has been sitting in a cardboard box in the basement of an office building for fifteen years. We’d just have to hope that some dude happened to stumble across it and knew what it was. We can’t raid buildings for Doctor Who. I don’t mean to sound depressing, but the time where we can effectively search for missing episodes is coming quickly to an end, and we’re all going to have to face the hard truth that what we have on that day is most likely all we’ll ever have. So where do we go from there? When there are no more stones, how do we keep going forward, how do we keep up hope, or will we just whitter on here forever lamenting how things could have been different?
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Post by George D on Jun 9, 2018 2:45:25 GMT
It has always been exploring all paths and hoping some thing comes up.10 years from now we*may*have a couple more and then 10 years after we may have a couple more.
I agree that as time progresses it becomes less likely, but the Nigerian surprise came through so one never knows what will surface.
I'm not saying there will always be 90 plus missing episodes but we really have so much and eventually the hunt results will become rare.
The future will likely be cgi using audios and telesnaps. I don't think the technology is there yet but 20-30 year from now it could happen with realistic results
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jun 9, 2018 4:07:33 GMT
It has always been exploring all paths and hoping some thing comes up.10 years from now we*may*have a couple more and then 10 years after we may have a couple more. I agree that as time progresses it becomes less likely, but the Nigerian surprise came through so one never knows what will surface. I'm not saying there will always be 90 plus missing episodes but we really have so much and eventually the hunt results will become rare. The future will likely be cgi using audios and telesnaps. I don't think the technology is there yet but 20-30 year from now it could happen with realistic results The technology is really close for realistic CGI recreated episodes that could fool the viewer in thinking it's a recovered episode. Do a search for realistic CGI. The big problem is the cost. You would need a budget for a feature film. Computer animation like Power will be a more viable option in the short term. I foresee a realistic CGI reconstruction, perhaps with stories with only one or two episodes missing at first, only when ... 1. The cost isn't prohibitively expensive. 2. All avenues for recoveries of said episodes have been exhausted. 3. There is still commercial interest with the material in question. As technology improves this could happen in the next decade, if things line up favorably.
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jun 9, 2018 7:52:04 GMT
Let's not over-estimate CGI. No matter how realistic and cheap CGI becomes, there's got be decent acting propelling the animation. To make a reasonable reconstruction of a Troughton episode we'd need at least a damn good Troughton impersonator and someone familiar with the conventions of 60s television working with the animators. It might also be a good idea to ask people who'd seen the original for advice. There's only a couple of decades left before we all go gaga.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 21:23:43 GMT
Although ten years into the future is a generous and realistic length of time to allow for the dust to settle, I don't think we'll have quite that long to wait. Going by PM quotes, nothing so far has gone astray contradiction-wise in the 'recovery chain of events'...
Firstly we were advised in DWM # 466 to, "expect the unexpected", which was then backed up during a 2014 Facebook Q&A session where he assured us that, "I feel the fans of lost TV will be very happy with the outcome." But in the same interview we were cautioned, "And fans will just want a yes or no, haven’t you or have you. But it’s complex. All I can say is the wind is blowing the right way. Be patient.” And the reason for this was stated to be that, "I don’t wish to jeopardise the on-going project in any way." Next up at the Pandorica convention October 2015, we were informed that the next reveals would be non-Doctor Who. This has been followed through, with confirmation at the recent Fantom Films event, where PM disclosed that he has handed over non-Doctor Who missing material to the BFI, which will be unveiled at this year's Missing Believed Wiped event. He also confirmed at the Fantom Films event that we are getting more Doctor Who, but no specific timeline. So as for what's next, I give it a few years yet for the next announcement, mindful of the development of PM's "on-going project", but not ten... good gracious God no. Getting the next Doctor Who recoveries when "we least expect it" might be a reference to everything quietening down online on the rumour front (praise be), and then after a time of peace, the announcement could unexpectedly hit us side-on like a juggernaut, but through a different announcement method than the previous press conference in 2013. I would like to add that, given the irresponsible and disrespectful behaviour online on the rumour-front (myself guilty in times past of being swept up in this), it does beg the question of whether some 'fans' are actually deserving of any future recoveries, those 9 from 2013 inclusive. Hopefully no more of this will happen in the run up to 'what's next'.
On the private collectors front, one recent development is definitely the confirmation of missing material to be Doctor Who. Whereas on the Newsnight piece on missing episodes, the Kaleidoscope group could not confirm what the missing collector's material was, we now have confirmation of what many already suspected. Again, though a slight development (if it can at least be called that) it still doesn't mean a thing in terms of timescales. I hope that before another 10 years is up, one or two of these collectors films, including The Web of Fear 3, and any non-Who material will have been kindly handed in.
I believe that the Macra School showing, like the rumoured Power Singapore school showing, and the claimed Germany ZDF Ice Warriors 1998 broadcast will fade into nothing.
I think we should be breaking open the champagne, though, in terms of all that has happened since 1977, definitely. A lot to celebrate. It's worth noting that when we got the heart-breaking news in the Doctor Who Winter Special 1981 and the Doctor Who A Celebration book in 1983 the wheels were already in motion, in terms of recoveries.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 9, 2018 23:11:05 GMT
Firstly, we need to be careful not to over interpret things.
I’m far from the first to propose it but Snowmen/Wheel from Nigeria would not be unreasonable. There have been a decent number of b&w recoveries from there and, thanks to PM, we know that it’s somewhere prints could sit on a shelf for forty years. Like Enemy and Web those stories seem to have finished up in Nigeria. However, the longer there is with no news the less likely they become.
We already know that there are prints held by collectors - some are held by posters here. It would now appear that one, or more, MEs are held by collectors. This is good and bad news. The good is that they’re likely to be cared for. The bad news is that the holder is unlikely to be young and when they go to that great archive in the sky it’s uncertain what will happen to their collection - the recent fate of the Private Video Library is a salutary lesson. It is important to note that prints are the property of the holder and unless they attempt to usurp the rights of the copyright holder (Auntie) by attempting to profit from them they can almost do what they want.
As to what could be in private collections, that’s more difficult. My “best guess” would be some from the batch returned from Australia and from which we know prints went “walkies”. My contribution (sic) has been to point out that these tend to be like Krynoid pods - they travel in pairs! I think that whoever “acquired” these had a bag, briefcase, etc with room for a couple of 16mm prints and then passed/sold them on in pairs.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 10, 2018 0:17:00 GMT
Regarding private collectors, there is always the risk that when they pass away or some unforeseen life event occurs that their collections are placed in jeopardy. Amateur collectors who do not digitise and create back-up copies of their material risk losing it forever if something bad were to happen to the original prints (e.g. consumed by fire), so it's always important to encourage them to exercise proper preservation practices. Those that do mustn't be pressured into relinquishing their property for the sake of our satisfaction; collectors will give things up if and when they feel ready to.
I agree with John (and I've said before) that there's reason to believe we'll get The Wheel in Space and The Abominable Snowmen back, based on the Nigerian recoveries of 2013. I personally feel we can hope to get back The Web of Fear #3, possibly The Daleks' Master Plan #4 and maybe even The Power of the Daleks #6. Whatever else may still exist beyond those serials would be in the hands of private collectors, and no indication has been given as to what those episodes might be aside from the fact that most of the orphaned episodes' origins are consistent with the return of episodes from Australia in 1975 more than anything else.
As for when this "big reveal" will occur, I'm not overly convinced by the 'when we least expect it' remark. We will find out what's been found when the risk to the recovery process is at a minimum; that is to say when all that could reasonably be recovered has been recovered. The actions of the more reckless and irresponsible have, in the past, put the recovery of missing episodes in jeopardy. I'm sure Phil Morris is fully aware of this, and will take appropriate measures to ensure this doesn't occur again. Depending on how extensive and in-depth the search has been, it could take from a few more years to a whole decade longer. From the indications we've been given about no stone being left unturned, it's likely more towards the latter.
The next step, in my mind, is to solidify our understanding of this whole situation. I, like several others on this forum, prefer to take a more critical academic view of lost material (not just Doctor Who, but missing media as a whole) and I feel that a proper discourse should be established to document the process of tele-recordings and international film distribution chains among other things to inform people in the future about the efforts that were made to recover lost programmes. No one knows when or where this process will end, but when it does, it will end in the knowledge that absolutely nothing more could have been done to save what was lost.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jun 10, 2018 0:26:50 GMT
And as some one who knew about missing episode's as far back as 1980, look how far we have come in 38 years, I can imagine where we will be 38 years from now (assuming I'm still alive in 38 years as it would make me 90 )
I remember when we had no missing episode sound tracks, no tele snaps to make recons with and animation was not even a dream. I can imagine where we will be 10 years form now?
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Post by andrewfrostick on Jun 10, 2018 6:32:03 GMT
Let's not over-estimate CGI. No matter how realistic and cheap CGI becomes, there's got be decent acting propelling the animation. To make a reasonable reconstruction of a Troughton episode we'd need at least a damn good Troughton impersonator and someone familiar with the conventions of 60s television working with the animators. It might also be a good idea to ask people who'd seen the original for advice. There's only a couple of decades left before we all go gaga. Realistically it seems unlikely we will ever see everything returned, but I'm sure advances in image manipulation and some cut away reconstruction could get us far closer to something passing for the original than the animations. I still feel the admittedly shortened version of Galaxy Four to be the best recon to be put out so far. Think how far the Loose Canon photographic concepts could be taken with better technology.
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Post by andrewfrostick on Jun 10, 2018 6:39:49 GMT
Regarding private collectors, there is always the risk that when they pass away or some unforeseen life event occurs that their collections are placed in jeopardy. Amateur collectors who do not digitise and create back-up copies of their material risk losing it forever if something bad were to happen to the original prints (e.g. consumed by fire), so it's always important to encourage them to exercise proper preservation practices. Those that do mustn't be pressured into relinquishing their property for the sake of our satisfaction; collectors will give things up if and when they feel ready to.
I agree with John (and I've said before) that there's reason to believe we'll get The Wheel in Space and The Abominable Snowmen back, based on the Nigerian recoveries of 2013. I personally feel we can hope to get back The Web of Fear #3, possibly The Daleks' Master Plan #4 and maybe even The Power of the Daleks #6. Whatever else may still exist beyond those serials would be in the hands of private collectors, and no indication has been given as to what those episodes might be aside from the fact that most of the orphaned episodes' origins are consistent with the return of episodes from Australia in 1975 more than anything else.
As for when this "big reveal" will occur, I'm not overly convinced by the 'when we least expect it' remark. We will find out what's been found when the risk to the recovery process is at a minimum; that is to say when all that could reasonably be recovered has been recovered. The actions of the more reckless and irresponsible have, in the past, put the recovery of missing episodes in jeopardy. I'm sure Phil Morris is fully aware of this, and will take appropriate measures to ensure this doesn't occur again. Depending on how extensive and in-depth the search has been, it could take from a few more years to a whole decade longer. From the indications we've been given about no stone being left unturned, it's likely more towards the latter.
The next step, in my mind, is to solidify our understanding of this whole situation. I, like several others on this forum, prefer to take a more critical academic view of lost material (not just Doctor Who, but missing media as a whole) and I feel that a proper discourse should be established to document the process of tele-recordings and international film distribution chains among other things to inform people in the future about the efforts that were made to recover lost programmes. No one knows when or where this process will end, but when it does, it will end in the knowledge that absolutely nothing more could have been done to save what was lost. I think that Phil is of the mindset that if he were to already have found, say 4 or 5 orphan episodes, he would set those to one side until he can be certain the remainders cannot be tracked down. I'm imagining he is not the sort to set out on a quest to then reveal everything piece meal, better to wait with the prospect of a full set - which is more marketable. I can imagine he is a completist, hence why there has been a while since announcements. If he had all the episodes of Abominable Snowmen bar 1 - he's going to bide his time and not suffer the issues of Web of Fear release.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 10, 2018 10:01:23 GMT
Regarding private collectors, there is always the risk that when they pass away or some unforeseen life event occurs that their collections are placed in jeopardy. Amateur collectors who do not digitise and create back-up copies of their material risk losing it forever if something bad were to happen to the original prints (e.g. consumed by fire), so it's always important to encourage them to exercise proper preservation practices. Those that do mustn't be pressured into relinquishing their property for the sake of our satisfaction; collectors will give things up if and when they feel ready to.
I agree with John (and I've said before) that there's reason to believe we'll get The Wheel in Space and The Abominable Snowmen back, based on the Nigerian recoveries of 2013. I personally feel we can hope to get back The Web of Fear #3, possibly The Daleks' Master Plan #4 and maybe even The Power of the Daleks #6. Whatever else may still exist beyond those serials would be in the hands of private collectors, and no indication has been given as to what those episodes might be aside from the fact that most of the orphaned episodes' origins are consistent with the return of episodes from Australia in 1975 more than anything else.
As for when this "big reveal" will occur, I'm not overly convinced by the 'when we least expect it' remark. We will find out what's been found when the risk to the recovery process is at a minimum; that is to say when all that could reasonably be recovered has been recovered. The actions of the more reckless and irresponsible have, in the past, put the recovery of missing episodes in jeopardy. I'm sure Phil Morris is fully aware of this, and will take appropriate measures to ensure this doesn't occur again. Depending on how extensive and in-depth the search has been, it could take from a few more years to a whole decade longer. From the indications we've been given about no stone being left unturned, it's likely more towards the latter.
The next step, in my mind, is to solidify our understanding of this whole situation. I, like several others on this forum, prefer to take a more critical academic view of lost material (not just Doctor Who, but missing media as a whole) and I feel that a proper discourse should be established to document the process of tele-recordings and international film distribution chains among other things to inform people in the future about the efforts that were made to recover lost programmes. No one knows when or where this process will end, but when it does, it will end in the knowledge that absolutely nothing more could have been done to save what was lost. I think that Phil is of the mindset that if he were to already have found, say 4 or 5 orphan episodes, he would set those to one side until he can be certain the remainders cannot be tracked down. I'm imagining he is not the sort to set out on a quest to then reveal everything piece meal, better to wait with the prospect of a full set - which is more marketable. I can imagine he is a completist, hence why there has been a while since announcements. If he had all the episodes of Abominable Snowmen bar 1 - he's going to bide his time and not suffer the issues of Web of Fear release. I agree; the fact that he waited for two years to try and complete The Web of Fear is proof that he is at least willing to bide his time for the sake of completion. Judging from how far and wide he's going, he would certainly know whether an orphan episode was part of a complete or near-complete set that still lingers somewhere. Since Morris doesn't directly work for the BBC, the question of marketability would not be at the forefront of his mind. Since he is a dedicated media recovery expert, I believe his primary thought would be ensuring that he's recovered everything he possibly could, and to do have done the best job possible in getting them back safely. I wonder if Morris used The Web of Fear as a litmus test to assess what would happen if he were to announce what he had found in preparation for the future reveals. The fact that one episode went missing 'en-route' (which he assures everyone he's confident of getting back), and that ever since we've heard pretty much nothing new from him, confirms he's now taking a much more cautious approach.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jun 10, 2018 18:40:48 GMT
Personally if Phil had taken physical custody of 4 or 5 individual episodes he would return them to the BBC for several reasons, one of which would to not be accused of sitting on them. It would also show every one that he is still on the trail and producing results. Heck even if he turned over redundant prints or UMATIC Tom Baker episodes it would still show the world that he is out there still on the hunt.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 10, 2018 18:44:08 GMT
Personally if Phil had taken physical custody of 4 or 5 individual episodes he would return them to the BBC for several reasons, one of which would to not be accused of sitting on them. It would also show every one that he is still on the trail and producing results. Heck even if he turned over redundant prints or UMATIC Tom Baker episodes it would still show the world that he is out there still on the hunt. As I, and others, have repeatedly stated, there’s nothing for him to gain by hanging on to things - he can’t make a penny out of them.
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Post by martinjwills on Jun 10, 2018 20:39:26 GMT
Phil has stated in interviews that he will only return completed stories, or episodes that will complete a story, so that limits this if he has found anything, except the expect the unexpected at any time. We know he found cans when he dug up the desert, although he has not stated what or the condition of the film inside. Also that container load that came into the country a few years ago, a lot could be local programmes, but we have only had a few cans out of that declared so far. It would be a lot of restoration on any large amount of programmes, so it would take a few years.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 21:05:51 GMT
On the orphaned episode front, it might be he HAS complete serials, but some of the episodes might be unrecoverable. Hence his need to look longer to find better copies.
Technically a hoard of '90' episodes could have been found, but only 46 are recoverable (as in the case of the Morcambe and Wise episode). Then I can understand why those in the know would be annoyed at news of this 'find' leaking out because Who fans would be deceieved into thinking 90 INTACT films had been found which would not be the case.
PM has stated he has only found an unrecoverable episode of Ambassadors of Death, but if there are other 1960s unrecoverable eps, and all stones had been unturned then animation would be the next logical step.
Anyone notice the hint on the tribute thread to Graham Strong regarding animations to come?
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