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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 7, 2018 8:30:40 GMT
Chris, out of interest, what original research have you done in this area? I don't mean collating information other people have put online but researching original BBC paperwork, visiting foreign broadcasters or talking to BBC employees who worked in the relevant areas. Basically, the kind of things people like Paul and Richard have done. I know what their credentials are, what are yours? I'm not trying to discredit the research that has been done by these people. If you look at what I'm writing, I'm merely asking questions to fill the current void in my own knowledge of which I have suggested a counter-explanation. I'm not claiming that these counter-explanations are true, so it's pointless to ask such a question.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 7, 2018 8:46:20 GMT
The other episodes beyond the Season 6 cache including film masters assuming they were sent there upon expiry of the sales rights (25 of 47 episodes) and the other film masters from earlier seasons (a further 2 of 47 episodes) explains the bulk of the Film Library holdings in 1977. The other 20 episodes can easily be explained through the elusive individual that Jon mentioned who handed Enterprises copies of Doctor Who episodes to the Film Library in order to save them from destruction over a period of time. On this basis, everything is accounted for.
I still don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. What is "film masters" supposed to mean? Other than the six 35mm telerecordings that were properly housed in the Film Library, the rest were just 16mm positive film recordings from made by Enterprises from the original broadcast videotapes. And once again, Enterprises did not send anything to the Film Library on expiry of the sales rights. They just destroyed the material. As Jon said, there were 'episodes TX'd from film [which] were of course kept by the film library ... They were the TX films despite also being film recordings'. This is what I'm referring to.
So my next question is: why were so many of the Season 6 serials in the Film Library?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 7, 2018 9:05:52 GMT
I still don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. What is "film masters" supposed to mean? Other than the six 35mm telerecordings that were properly housed in the Film Library, the rest were just 16mm positive film recordings from made by Enterprises from the original broadcast videotapes. And once again, Enterprises did not send anything to the Film Library on expiry of the sales rights. They just destroyed the material. As Jon said, there were 'episodes TX'd from film [which] were of course kept by the film library ... They were the TX films despite also being film recordings'. This is what I'm referring to. Which is the six 35mm telerecordings I keep referring to. The others do not fall into that category.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 7, 2018 9:33:56 GMT
It's not a bad explanation, but what about the sales rights window? Why do you believe that the movement of prints from Enterprises to the Film Library occurred because of Levine, and not the more natural expiry of sales rights (which coincidentally expired in that year for the Season 6 serials)? Why would the films be moved to the library after expiry? Such a trigger event would apply to ALL BBC programmes when they expired, not just Doctor Who, so you'd be talking about hundreds if not thousands of film prints being moved. But as Richard said earlier, Ents owned the films, they wouldn't be sending them to the film library who didn't want them. New programmes being made in 1976/77 were on video tape, and therefore weren't stored at Villiers, so a lack of storage space wouldn't be a factor. Villiers only had what was left of their film holdings. I suggest you read the interviews with Levine in DWB and "Wiped"; the answers to your questions about the red tape Levine went through to acquire the films are pretty much all explained there. Out of interest, did any other BBC programmes end up in the Film Library? If so, what quantities?
Could there have been the slightest chance of Enterprises clearing out what remained of their film stock between 1976 and 1977 by moving it to the Film Library? The Levine interview in DWB states this: 'BBC Enterprises had an office actually in the film library in Windmill Road which had nothing to do with BBC Enterprises' office at Villiers House', though it is indicated that this was primarily concerned with newsreels and stock-shots. My suggestion was based on the assumption that it was through this Enterprises office at the Film Library that was responsible for the prints ending up there. I'm not saying that this is true, but it would provide (to me at least) a satisfactory explanation as to why the Whose Doctor Who team recorded such a similar list of remaining episodes in 1976 compared with the Film Library audit of 1977 (with recently-added Season 6 serials and whatever one-off prints Enterprises still had). If my counter-explanation is not the case, then why are the two lists so similar and why did such a large bulk of Season 6 serials suddenly turn up?
The interview does distinctly highlight the concerns that the BBC had over script, actor and music royalties and copyright. It also stated that they weren't making much money from selling him the episodes, so even that can be discounted as an incentive. So why would they have specially bundled together remaining episodes for an unprecedented sale that, incidentally, didn't take place for six months? They were still destroying episodes at this time (Galaxy 4); an indication as to just how half-hearted the BBC was with Levine's request. If they did this, why would they have gone out of their way to collect all the episodes just for one enthusiastic fan?
It must be said that the DWB source was the one that made the infamous '28 countries, 28 prints' remark, so it's validity is questionable. I have yet to read the Wiped interview.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 10:24:17 GMT
As Jon said, there were 'episodes TX'd from film [which] were of course kept by the film library ... They were the TX films despite also being film recordings'. This is what I'm referring to. Which is the six 35mm telerecordings I keep referring to. The others do not fall into that category. One of these six 35mm telerecordings is Episode 5 of The Dalek Invasion of Earth, right? I notice the improvement in picture quality on the DVD.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 7, 2018 10:27:11 GMT
Could there have been the slightest chance of Enterprises clearing out what remained of their film stock between 1976 and 1977 by moving it to the Film Library? No. Enterprises did indeed have a desk in the Film Library, but this related to sale of news footage and other material originating on film to third parties. It would have had nothing to do with the movement of Doctor Who episodes. It should be pointed out that a number of the 16mm episodes that were in the Film Library in 1977 were very probably there because of Whose Doctor Who. Producer, Tony Cash, had produced a long list of 36 episodes he wished to order up from Enterprises in January 1976. There would certainly have been a subsequent order to this as the programme showed clips from other stories not on the original list, such as those from The Mind Robber. Bear in mind that these prints had been ordered from Pamela Nash at BBC Enterprises for delivery to the East Tower Film Despatch area and not from the Film Library - and yet a year later, a number of those self-same episodes are sitting in the Film Library when the record cards were viewed by Ian Levine. I think that it's highly likely that as the cans moved around the BBC during the production of Whose Doctor Who, some of them ended up, by accident, being routed over to the Film Library rather than being returned to Enterprises and they were simply booked in as being part of their stock. It wasn't a case of being half-hearted. However, enthusiastic Ian might have been at the time, he wasn't someone that they were taking particularly seriously. In the early stages and on his initial contact with Enterprises, they weren't in a position at that time to sell anything earlier than 1970 anyway, which is why his attention turned to the Film Library, which did contain some of the material he desired. There's no reason why anyone at Enterprises should have decided to put any future junkings on hold just because a 23-year old had made a private query.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 7, 2018 10:29:20 GMT
Which is the six 35mm telerecordings I keep referring to. The others do not fall into that category. One of these six 35mm telerecordings is Episode 5 of The Dalek Invasion of Earth, right? I notice the improvement in picture quality on the DVD. Yes, that's one of them. It give a good idea how clear the programme looked when it was originally transmitted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 10:36:55 GMT
I still don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. What is "film masters" supposed to mean? Other than the six 35mm telerecordings that were properly housed in the Film Library, the rest were just 16mm positive film recordings from made by Enterprises from the original broadcast videotapes. And once again, Enterprises did not send anything to the Film Library on expiry of the sales rights. They just destroyed the material. As Jon said, there were 'episodes TX'd from film [which] were of course kept by the film library ... They were the TX films despite also being film recordings'. This is what I'm referring to.
So my next question is: why were so many of the Season 6 serials in the Film Library?
A number of Season 6 episodes were handed over BFI, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong. But this may account for the higher number of Season 6 film copies. (It's questions like this that make me realise we are missing something like a Waddingtons Doctor Who Missing Episodes board game. Be great playing it on X-mas day and trying to answer similar 'next move' questions after a few glasses of wine. The board could be the countries where eps went to. Throw 2 sixes to get into Africa etc... Or maybe not).
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 7, 2018 16:21:11 GMT
Could there have been the slightest chance of Enterprises clearing out what remained of their film stock between 1976 and 1977 by moving it to the Film Library? No. Enterprises did indeed have a desk in the Film Library, but this related to sale of news footage and other material originating on film to third parties. It would have had nothing to do with the movement of Doctor Who episodes. It should be pointed out that a number of the 16mm episodes that were in the Film Library in 1977 were very probably there because of Whose Doctor Who. Producer, Tony Cash, had produced a long list of 36 episodes he wished to order up from Enterprises in January 1976. There would certainly have been a subsequent order to this as the programme showed clips from other stories not on the original list, such as those from The Mind Robber. Bear in mind that these prints had been ordered from Pamela Nash at BBC Enterprises for delivery to the East Tower Film Despatch area and not from the Film Library - and yet a year later, a number of those self-same episodes are sitting in the Film Library when the record cards were viewed by Ian Levine. I think that it's highly likely that as the cans moved around the BBC during the production of Whose Doctor Who, some of them ended up, by accident, being routed over to the Film Library rather than being returned to Enterprises and they were simply booked in as being part of their stock. It wasn't a case of being half-hearted. However, enthusiastic Ian might have been at the time, he wasn't someone that they were taking particularly seriously. In the early stages and on his initial contact with Enterprises, they weren't in a position at that time to sell anything earlier than 1970 anyway, which is why his attention turned to the Film Library, which did contain some of the material he desired. There's no reason why anyone at Enterprises should have decided to put any future junkings on hold just because a 23-year old had made a private query. Haha! This has been almost exhausting, but I hope my tenacity is viewed admirably! I've learnt a fair amount from this conversation, so it hasn't entirely been a waste of time. I'll be quiet now - until the next thread which piques my curiosity...
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 7, 2018 22:13:07 GMT
Very exhausting! So, in a nut shell:
* Prior to Nov 1976, Villiers House (Enterprises) had a set of 16mm negatives, and a random batch of 16mm prints (presumably returns from overseas). The Film Library had the 35mm negatives, and possibly a smattering of misdirected 16mm prints.
* By late 1977, some if not all of the 16mm prints from Villiers had been relocated to the Film Library. There are two known trigger events that may have influenced this: Whose Doctor Who and Ian Levine seeking copies. (Although Enterprises retained most of its 16mm negs, it had by this time donated some to the BFI.)
* In 1978, Sue Malden found the 16mm prints and 35mm negs at the Film Library. Later, she found the 16mm negs at the BFI, and the rest of the 16mm negs at Villiers.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 7, 2018 22:49:49 GMT
Very exhausting! So, in a nut shell: * Prior to Nov 1976, Villiers House (Enterprises) had a set of 16mm negatives, and a random batch of 16mm prints (presumably returns from overseas). The Film Library had the 35mm negatives, and possibly a smattering of misdirected 16mm prints. * By late 1977, some if not all of the 16mm prints from Villiers had been relocated to the Film Library. There are two known trigger events that may have influenced this: Whose Doctor Who and Ian Levine seeking copies. (Although Enterprises retained most of its 16mm negs, it had by this time donated some to the BFI.) * In 1978, Sue Malden found the 16mm prints and 35mm negs at the Film Library. Later, she found the 16mm negs at the BFI, and the rest of the 16mm negs at Villiers.Ian Levine, bless his little cotton socks, is a bit like marmite - some love him, some hate him. However, no one can possibly doubt his COMMITMENT to the good Dr. There are loads and loads of episodes that we wouldn’t have or might only have in b&w without him. The only regret - and he’s 100% innocent - must be that he didn’t get in there a year or so earlier:-(
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Post by George D on Jun 7, 2018 22:57:40 GMT
It's a,shame so much was lost is such a small window of time
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Post by John Wall on Jun 8, 2018 0:00:59 GMT
It's a,shame so much was lost is such a small window of time Yes, we missed out on a complete, or almost complete, set by very little.
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Post by Neil Lambess on Jun 8, 2018 5:59:29 GMT
Power was debunked, just didn’t hang together. Macra is, imho, a grudging possibility but there are credible alternative explanations.,[/quote Haha ....Sorry but I saw it ! It's not a rumour ...despite locating one missing episode and helping get it back people still call it a rumour ... (weather it survived or not is a different story ) but I'm still looking
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Jun 8, 2018 10:35:47 GMT
Power was debunked, just didn’t hang together. Macra is, imho, a grudging possibility but there are credible alternative explanations., Haha ....Sorry but I saw it ! It's not a rumour ...despite locating one missing episode and helping get it back people still call it a rumour ... (weather it survived or not is a different story ) but I'm still looking You mean your recovery of The Lion? Right? Not an episode of Macra? That’s what I assume, just the way your response was written left me confused there for a moment. I believe you though.
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