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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 6, 2018 10:59:06 GMT
The Film Library held a rag-bag of episodes and only one complete story. What 16mm prints they had acquired was more by accident than judgement and they would largely have come their way as the result of misdirected internal film traffic - easily done given the vast amout of film flying round the BBC at that time. Power of the Daleks 6, along with every other episode that had been recorded to and transmitted from 35mm was exactly where it should have been - in the Film Library, as a production that had originated on film. As I've already said, the Film Library would have rejected the prints had the been offered to them by BBC Enterprises (an accusation that's sometimes leveled at Enterprises by some people). But they weren't offered or given to them by Enterprises. They simply would have been gradually acquired, by accident, along with the vast amount of film going in and out of the library to various production offices. Bear in mind too, that while the film library had mostly those episodes on 35mm negative, Enterprises had the bulk of what was on 16mm, both negatives and some positives; the people putting Whose Doctor Who together in late 1976 went to both locations to look at the available positives. Then ... about a year later, in late 1977, Ian Levine spent several days at the film library looking at what they had when he was negotiating to buy copies. And based on his account of what episodes he viewed while there (as reported in DWB in 1992), this included some of the episodes that Enterprises had in 1976. Some have concluded that Enterprises and the library must have held duplicates of the same episodes, whereas I suspect what happened was that the people that Levine was dealing with had arranged for Enterprises to send the positives they had to the film library for Levine to view them, since that was where he was going to be. (It wasn't until the following year that Levine went to Enterprises' base at Villiers House and found all the negatives which Enterprises still had.) When Sue Malden contacted the film library in 1978 while seeking prints, all those episodes that Levine had viewed were still there; they hadn't been returned to Enterprises. This could at least explain the "rag-bag" of holdings that the library had when the archive was initially set up. I believe that the prints that ended up in the Film Library in advance of Levine's viewing were not put there solely for that purpose.
I'm not so sure the BBC would be as willing to cooperate as you suggest, as Levine's request was unprecedented and (at the time) legally uncertain - they must have still been possessive about their copyright in a situation which could have been interpreted as internalised piracy. Arranging the accessibility to positives from Nash-controlled BBC Enterprises is more difficult to accept than that actor playing Ben in Twice Upon a Time!
I've refuted a previous suggestion that the Film Library was lumbered with Doctor Who episodes accidentally. I believe it was entirely intentional, though undesirable. It's interesting to note that the material that ended up at the Film Library favours the Troughton episodes rather than the Hartnell ones, which perhaps suggests something. It appears as though, as the sales rights expired, the prints were sent to the Film Library to make space for newer, sellable programmes at Enterprises. When authorised for destruction (if they hadn't already been), the prints were removed by Enterprises and 'destroyed' off-site. The process was surely much more orderly, and the suggestion that it is misdirected film traffic (considering the sheer volume that ended up there) seems ludicrous to me.
The reason why the Whose Doctor Who team and Ian Levine recorded so similar episodes in two different places can be explained by this theory; they were moved from Enterprises to the Film Library once the rights had expired and they became unsellable. This perhaps explains why later Troughton serials such as The Dominators appeared in the Film Library completely intact in 1977; they'd only recently been moved there. Incidentally, the bulk of Film Library episodes recorded in 1977 is heavily skewed towards Season 6 serials.
I fully agree with the final point you made.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 6, 2018 12:02:14 GMT
I've refuted a previous suggestion that the Film Library was lumbered with Doctor Who episodes accidentally. I believe it was entirely intentional, though undesirable...It appears as though, as the sales rights expired, the prints were sent to the Film Library to make space for newer, sellable programmes at Enterprises. You can happy refute it, but to suggest that the random Enterprises film prints were in the Film Library by design simply does not tie up with the facts. The staff that I've spoken to over the years who worked for both BBC Enterprises and in the Film Library have very clearly indicated that your assumption is simply not correct. The film prints were the property of Enterprises, bought and paid for. They didn't offer them to the Film Library once they had finished with them and the staff at the Film Library wouldn't have taken them if they did and they were not there as a general archive and a repository of Enterprises cast offs. It was simply not their remit.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2018 15:25:51 GMT
Did I once read on one of the threads on here about an individual working at the Film Library who hated Doctor Who? Apparently he destroyed Doctor Who film for his own gratification, until he was (thankfully) reprimanded for his actions by Sue Malden and asked to stop?
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 6, 2018 15:38:44 GMT
I've refuted a previous suggestion that the Film Library was lumbered with Doctor Who episodes accidentally. I believe it was entirely intentional, though undesirable...It appears as though, as the sales rights expired, the prints were sent to the Film Library to make space for newer, sellable programmes at Enterprises. You can happy refute it, but to suggest that the random Enterprises film prints were in the Film Library by design simply does not tie up with the facts. The staff that I've spoken to over the years who worked for both BBC Enterprises and in the Film Library have very clearly indicated that your assumption is simply not correct. The film prints were the property of Enterprises, bought and paid for. They didn't offer them to the Film Library once they had finished with them and the staff at the Film Library wouldn't have then them if they did and they were not there as a general archive and a repository of Enterprises cast offs. It was simply not their remit. If this is true, why would the Film Library have held on to any of the Doctor Who episodes if they didn't want them and had no remit to store them? Why were they not thrown out straight away? Can it be categorically ruled out that the Film Library were not offered or forced to take on this material?
To me, this doesn't adequately explain why a disproportionate amount of Season 6 serials ended up in the Film Library by 1977 in comparison to everything else. Even if it was true that Levine's request meant the deployment of episodes from Enterprises to the Film Library, why were they not complete serials and why were they not returned afterwards for formal destruction? The sales rights, as far as it is understood, would have already expired. The gap between Whose Doctor Who preparations and Levine finally getting his way with the 1960s serials was roughly a year - plenty of time for them to be returned. Most of the 'rag-bag' episodes were done on film, which explains their presence in the Film Library. What's to say that the rest weren't originally complete serials when they were first given to them? The Romans had 2/4 episodes, The Tenth Planet had 3/4 episodes, The Moonbase had 2/4 episodes, not to mention the near-complete cache of episodes from Season 6 - all of which were in the Film Library by 1977 despite having no remit to keep them?
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 6, 2018 15:40:17 GMT
Did I once read on one of the threads on here about an individual working at the Film Library who hated Doctor Who? Apparently he destroyed Doctor Who film for his own gratification, until he was (thankfully) reprimanded for his actions by Sue Malden and asked to stop? Yes, on the Missing Episodes BlogSpot (missingepisodes.blogspot.com/p/timeline.html):
'Despite the junking officially ending in 1978, returned material was junked as late as 1981, partially due to the new directive not being passed down to all departments, but mainly due to an individual who blatantly ignored the rules at the time. This individual was eventually reprimanded, but not before junking more returned material – including Doctor Who films – recently returned from overseas. It is not known if the material junked between 1978 and 1981 by this man is currently missing from the archives.'
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jun 6, 2018 16:14:31 GMT
If this is true, why would the Film Library have held on to any of the Doctor Who episodes if they didn't want them and had no remit to store them? Why were they not thrown out straight away? Can it be categorically ruled out that the Film Library were not offered or forced to take on this material?
To me, this doesn't adequately explain why a disproportionate amount of Season 6 serials ended up in the Film Library by 1977 in comparison to everything else. Even if it was true that Levine's request meant the deployment of episodes from Enterprises to the Film Library, why were they not complete serials and why were they not returned afterwards for formal destruction? The sales rights, as far as it is understood, would have already expired. The gap between Whose Doctor Who preparations and Levine finally getting his way with the 1960s serials was roughly a year - plenty of time for them to be returned. Most of the 'rag-bag' episodes were done on film, which explains their presence in the Film Library. What's to say that the rest weren't originally complete serials when they were first given to them? The Romans had 2/4 episodes, The Tenth Planet had 3/4 episodes, The Moonbase had 2/4 episodes, not to mention the near-complete cache of episodes from Season 6 - all of which were in the Film Library by 1977 despite having no remit to keep them?
I'm with Richard on this. You're right that episodes TX'd from film were of course kept by the film library. The reason? They were the TX films despite also being film recordings. The VT TX tapes were kept by the engineering department in their VT library. So, what to do with all of these pesky 16mm film recordings that keep being sent to the film library? The answer was to accession them. The reason this was done was purely bureaucratic. All films sent to the library had to have a number for a decision to be made about it. Eventually, a decision would be made and in most cases the material junked. Junked, if it had not been for the appointment of Sue Malden. The films were sent from all over. Ealing, TVC, FR, Ents etc... Not all the film recordings were true Enterprises films such as the 16mm film recordings of The Ice Warriors and the 35mm film recordings of The Celestial Toymaker. These were all destroyed. We do know that some Enterprises films were sent to the film library by a specific person at Villiers House, when he discovered that films of Doctor Who were being destroyed. He did this anonymously. Now, there was no evidence for this, so I asked the person he told me he had sent these films to, Sue Malden and she confirmed that she was sent films anonymously from Villiers House. I think that was happening long before she arrived at Windmill Road to take up her role, so that might explain why those specific films were there. But he doesn't recall what he sent except that it was a lot of material. Paul
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Post by Richard Marple on Jun 6, 2018 17:35:43 GMT
Did I once read on one of the threads on here about an individual working at the Film Library who hated Doctor Who? Apparently he destroyed Doctor Who film for his own gratification, until he was (thankfully) reprimanded for his actions by Sue Malden and asked to stop? Yes, on the Missing Episodes BlogSpot (missingepisodes.blogspot.com/p/timeline.html):
'Despite the junking officially ending in 1978, returned material was junked as late as 1981, partially due to the new directive not being passed down to all departments, but mainly due to an individual who blatantly ignored the rules at the time. This individual was eventually reprimanded, but not before junking more returned material – including Doctor Who films – recently returned from overseas. It is not known if the material junked between 1978 and 1981 by this man is currently missing from the archives.'
I've heard that some filmed inserts were junked this late, possibly as they weren't complete programmes.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 6, 2018 21:05:34 GMT
I believe that the prints that ended up in the Film Library in advance of Levine's viewing were not put there solely for that purpose. I was offering a possible explanation for why the films that had been at Enterprises in late 1976 were at the film library a year later. The only event we know about that could have influenced such a 'transfer' was Ian Levine's request to view everything the BBC had. If it wasn't due to him, then it's a remarkable coincidence that the films were suddenly moved for whatever reason from Villiers House (where they'd been for many years) to the film library and for them to still be there when Ian Levine came knocking.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 6, 2018 21:47:03 GMT
Most of the 'rag-bag' episodes were done on film, which explains their presence in the Film Library. I don't understand what you're saying here. Out of the 47 episodes in the Film Library in 1977, only six of those were recorded to and transmitted from 35mm film and were precisely where they should have been - in the Film Library.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 6, 2018 22:15:46 GMT
I believe that the prints that ended up in the Film Library in advance of Levine's viewing were not put there solely for that purpose. I was offering a possible explanation for why the films that had been at Enterprises in late 1976 were at the film library a year later. The only event we know about that could have influenced such a 'transfer' was Ian Levine's request to view everything the BBC had. If it wasn't due to him, then it's a remarkable coincidence that the films were suddenly moved for whatever reason from Villiers House (where they'd been for many years) to the film library and for them to still be there when Ian Levine came knocking. It's not a bad explanation, but what about the sales rights window? Why do you believe that the movement of prints from Enterprises to the Film Library occurred because of Levine, and not the more natural expiry of sales rights (which coincidentally expired in that year for the Season 6 serials)? Hardly a remarkable coincidence if Villiers House was short of space, particularly when new programmes were being made and sold. Again I reiterate, why would the copyright-conscious BBC (at the time) have been so keen on bundling together all of their available prints for an unprecedented purchase by Levine? Your suggestion would make more sense if it had an existing precedence, but it did not.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 6, 2018 22:33:02 GMT
Most of the 'rag-bag' episodes were done on film, which explains their presence in the Film Library. I don't understand what you're saying here. Out of the 47 episodes in the Film Library in 1977, only six of those were recorded to and transmitted from 35mm film and were precisely where they should have been - in the Film Library. The other episodes beyond the Season 6 cache including film masters assuming they were sent there upon expiry of the sales rights (25 of 47 episodes) and the other film masters from earlier seasons (a further 2 of 47 episodes) explains the bulk of the Film Library holdings in 1977. The other 20 episodes can easily be explained through the elusive individual that Jon mentioned who handed Enterprises copies of Doctor Who episodes to the Film Library in order to save them from destruction over a period of time. On this basis, everything is accounted for.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 6, 2018 22:34:37 GMT
It's not a bad explanation, but what about the sales rights window? Why do you believe that the movement of prints from Enterprises to the Film Library occurred because of Levine, and not the more natural expiry of sales rights (which coincidentally expired in that year for the Season 6 serials)? Why would the films be moved to the library after expiry? Such a trigger event would apply to ALL BBC programmes when they expired, not just Doctor Who, so you'd be talking about hundreds if not thousands of film prints being moved. But as Richard said earlier, Ents owned the films, they wouldn't be sending them to the film library who didn't want them. New programmes being made in 1976/77 were on video tape, and therefore weren't stored at Villiers, so a lack of storage space wouldn't be a factor. Villiers only had what was left of their film holdings. I suggest you read the interviews with Levine in DWB and "Wiped"; the answers to your questions about the red tape Levine went through to acquire the films are pretty much all explained there.
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Jun 6, 2018 22:48:08 GMT
Chris, out of interest, what original research have you done in this area? I don't mean collating information other people have put online but researching original BBC paperwork, visiting foreign broadcasters or talking to BBC employees who worked in the relevant areas. Basically, the kind of things people like Paul and Richard have done. I know what their credentials are, what are yours?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 6, 2018 22:56:27 GMT
I don't understand what you're saying here. Out of the 47 episodes in the Film Library in 1977, only six of those were recorded to and transmitted from 35mm film and were precisely where they should have been - in the Film Library. The other episodes beyond the Season 6 cache including film masters assuming they were sent there upon expiry of the sales rights (25 of 47 episodes) and the other film masters from earlier seasons (a further 2 of 47 episodes) explains the bulk of the Film Library holdings in 1977. The other 20 episodes can easily be explained through the elusive individual that Jon mentioned who handed Enterprises copies of Doctor Who episodes to the Film Library in order to save them from destruction over a period of time. On this basis, everything is accounted for.
I still don't have the foggiest what you're talking about. What is "film masters" supposed to mean? Other than the six 35mm telerecordings that were properly housed in the Film Library, the rest were just 16mm positive film recordings from made by Enterprises from the original broadcast videotapes. And once again, Enterprises did not send anything to the Film Library on expiry of the sales rights. They just destroyed the material.
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Post by George D on Jun 6, 2018 23:03:27 GMT
I'm curious since Ian looked at them apx 1 year before sue started hunting, could Ian s request have caused them to update and destroy?
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