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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 5, 2018 16:45:08 GMT
Therefore, only one complete set in 1973 with #4 being removed from the Film Library by Blue Peter in November with two certainties - firstly, it wasn't put back, and secondly, the other #4 from the Australia '75 returns wasn't used to reconstitute the set. If there was more than one complete set of The Tenth Planet in existence at that time, we'd probably have #4 in our hands today. Except that Episodes 1-3 and Episode 4 were held in completely different places. The first three were in the Film Library, but Episode 4 came from BBC Enterprises, where it was no doubt returned after its Blue Peter use and at some point later point, destroyed along with the 16mm negatives of all four episodes.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 5, 2018 17:20:12 GMT
Therefore, only one complete set in 1973 with #4 being removed from the Film Library by Blue Peter in November with two certainties - firstly, it wasn't put back, and secondly, the other #4 from the Australia '75 returns wasn't used to reconstitute the set. If there was more than one complete set of The Tenth Planet in existence at that time, we'd probably have #4 in our hands today. Except that Episodes 1-3 and Episode 4 were held in completely different places. The first three were in the Film Library, but Episode 4 came from BBC Enterprises, where it was no doubt returned after its Blue Peter use and at some point later point, destroyed along with the 16mm negatives of all four episodes. That's fairly typical, as from my understanding, the overseas prints were returned to Enterprises who often sent them away to the Film Library. What's to say that it wasn't in the Film Library first and then moved to BBC Enterprises in advance of the Blue Peter programme? Going back to the Master Plan discussion, why would Enterprises have held a single episode of a serial for any length of time when it's purpose was to sell complete serials overseas? Why is there no doubt of it's return to Enterprises - surely there's every doubt since the episode doesn't exist and no one knows for certain where it went? The Tenth Planet was unavailable for sale from 1974, so the episode must have disappeared quite quickly after Blue Peter in any case. Wasn't the #4 negative destroyed on 20 October 1969?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 5, 2018 18:13:22 GMT
That's fairly typical, as from my understanding, the overseas prints were returned to Enterprises who often sent them away to the Film Library. Your understanding is incorrect. The BBC Film Library was primarily a repositry for news and material that had originated on film. The fact that some 16mm Enterprises film prints had ended up there was purely accidental. The Film Library wasn't interested in taking on Enterprises old material and as the staff at that time have confirmed, even if they had been offered to them, they wouldn't have taken them. It wasn't their remit. You talking about The Traitors, yes? That print didn't come from Enterprises. It was one of the handful that had ended up at the Film Library. Who knows what Enterprises still held of The Daleks' Master Plan in 1973? They may have still held the negatives at that time, but that has nothing to do with what the Film Library did and did not have in their possession. But the complete series was still available in 1973, so the full set of 16mm negatives were very likely still in existance at that time, regardless of what happened to the film print of Episode 4. No, that was the date that the master Quad tape was wiped by Engineering.
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Post by George D on Jun 5, 2018 18:38:41 GMT
When Paul talks about Sue starting her hunt, how does that correlate time wise when Ian approached her?
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jun 5, 2018 18:58:49 GMT
That's fairly typical, as from my understanding, the overseas prints were returned to Enterprises who often sent them away to the Film Library. Your understanding is incorrect. The BBC Film Library was primarily a repositry for news and material that had originated on film. The fact that some 16mm Enterprises film prints had ended up there was purely accidental. The Film Library wasn't interested in taking on Enterprises old material and as the staff at that time have confirmed, even if they had been offered to them, they wouldn't have taken them. It wasn't their remit. You talking about The Traitors, yes? That print didn't come from Enterprises. It was one of the handful that had ended up at the Film Library. Who knows what Enterprises still held of The Daleks' Master Plan in 1973? They may have still held the negatives at that time, but that has nothing to do with what the Film Library did and did not have in their possession. But the complete series was still available in 1973, so the full set of 16mm negatives were very likely still in existance at that time, regardless of what happened to the film print of Episode 4. No, that was the date that the master Quad tape was wiped by Engineering. The Film Library held the entirety of An Unearthly Child, The Dominators and most (if not all at some point) of The Invasion, The Krotons and The Seeds of Death. I know the primary function of the Film Library was for newsreels and stock-shots, according to the BBC Handbook at the time. If the Film Library wasn't interested in taking on Enterprise material, then why did it accept The Power of the Daleks #6, The Daleks' Master Plan #4 and all of the other single-episode oddities that turned up at some point? It is surely more accurate to say that they were never interested in keeping the films they were given, hence why Master Plan #4 and Power #6 are gone. It's far from an accident if it happened on a regular basis - if all these staff said they rejected them, why did so much end up there (and was still there) by the time of the 1977 audit?
It may have been another thread, but I think there was a suggestion that incomplete serials were being returned to Enterprises during which time they could be sold (I can't specifically remember). Viewing prints, I think I'm right in saying, came from overseas prints already in circulation (e.g. Marco Polo #1 and #2 sent to Iran from NZ) or were a complete set that would be used for sales later on (e.g. The Ice Warriors sent to Germany). The fact that so much went to the Film Library after being returned to Enterprises surely proves the latter's rejection of incomplete serials.
There's not long between the time of the Blue Peter programme in November 1973 to the end of the year - a short enough window for the print not be returned.
Ah.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 19:13:38 GMT
When Paul talks about Sue starting her hunt, how does that correlate time wise when Ian approached her? From missingepisodes.blogpsot.com - The Destruction of Time: Late-1977: Ian Levine is finally granted permission to purchase material from the 1960s from the Film Library. He is given special compensation by the Writer’s Guild and Equity, and begins acquiring the 47 episodes that existed at Windmill Road. It was during this time that he and John Bridger (from the Film Sales Department) discovered a copy of An Unearthly Child with a different running time. Upon viewing it they discovered they had found the original pilot episode, complete with bloopers, dialogue errors and 3 different takes of the second half of the episode.And 1978 (no date specified): In a bid to end the process of junking material and capitalise on the growing domestic market, the BBC decide to merge the Film Library, which had existed since 1948, and the engineering department which was responsible for the videotape side of production, and create the Film and Videotape Library. Sue Malden is appointed the Library’s first archive selector, and to get a handle on how television shows may have survived within the BBC she chose Doctor Who as her pet project. With the 47 films from the Film Library already accounted for (see 1977 entry above), Sue turned her attention to surviving videotape masters. There were no 2" quad master tapes from the 1960s were left in existence (that is to say, none with Doctor Who on them; the master tape for The Enemy of the World 3 for example still exists but with another programme recorded over it). The complete list included The Ambassadors of Death 1, The Claws of Axos 1 4, The Daemons 4, Day of the Daleks 1 2 3 4, The Sea Devils 4 5 6, The Mutants 3 4 5 6, The Three Doctors 1 2 3 4, Carnival of Monsters 1 2 3 4, Frontier in Space 4 5, Planet of the Daleks 1 2 4 5 6, The Green Death 1 2 3 4 5 6, The Time Warrior 1 2 3 4, Invasion of the Dinosaurs 2 3 4 5 6, Death to the Daleks 2 3 4, The Monster of Peladon 1 2 3 4 5 6 and Planet of the Spiders 1 2 3 4 5 6.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 19:25:12 GMT
Also, as has been discussed here before, and is examined on the BroaDWcast, it's not entirely certain if the Blue Peter copy was a return from Singapore (for example), or a retained film copy not sent overseas. It must have come from Singapore. The reason being is that it is accepted that the Singapore returns were done around 1973/4. This serial happened to make it into the Film Library (which is not unusual, since the same thing happened to other serials). The Australian prints wouldn't have been returned until 1975. Therefore, only one complete set in 1973 with #4 being removed from the Film Library by Blue Peter in November with two certainties - firstly, it wasn't put back, and secondly, the other #4 from the Australia '75 returns wasn't used to reconstitute the set. If there was more than one complete set of The Tenth Planet in existence at that time, we'd probably have #4 in our hands today. The other #4 was destroyed around 1975/6. There are no loose ends with this serial.
Yes, generally accepted, but there is still no paperwork evidence in existence either from the BBC or Singapore that backs up this 73/74 assumption. It's still a loose-end yet to be substantially tied-up. I'm so grateful to hear about the recent visit Paul made and the fact that Singapore broadcasters have been more than cooperative over the years with their records. But they have said that they don't have their Doctor Who prints anymore, and don't know what happened to them. One option is that they were trafficked on somewhere else. This I believe was the case with The Web of Fear and The Enemy of the World Jos prints? However, this does not account for the remaining films, of which there are a lot!
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Post by simonashby on Jun 5, 2018 19:36:46 GMT
Sorry, but you're deluding yourself. You see, the JCB story only tells us that he's looked on that one/however many occasion(s). That's it. I don't care how much it costs. It proves that he had a lead and he looked, and nothing more! Having a lead and investigating that lead does not guarantee a find... even less so a find of missing Doctor Who. The condition of what was found (if anything) may be poor. The films found may already be in existence. It may not have been Doctor Who. You forget that he's looking for anything and everything. Fans of Doctor Who must understand that there is a much bigger picture and that there is so much more to find other than Doctor Who! His primary concern for is for the local broadcasters and their own material. Just because he's mentioning it to a Doctor Who crowd means nothing either. It's an interesting part of the story (why wouldn't you tell that story), but the story goes way beyond Doctor Who. The man himself did not say what the outcome of the JCB dig was. Had it come to nothing I believe he would said this. Another promising hint from PM is found in the DWM # 466 PM interview with his, "Expected the unexpected" line. We are told to quote him on this. I am rationally expecting another batch of 10 episodes, or less (if we are lucky), to be handed in by him. To me that kind of 10-episode-expectation does not even come close to the category of 'unexpected'. There is nothing rational about this.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jun 5, 2018 20:43:01 GMT
The Film Library held the entirety of An Unearthly Child, The Dominators and most (if not all at some point) of The Invasion, The Krotons and The Seeds of Death.I know the primary function of the Film Library was for newsreels and stock-shots, according to the BBC Handbook at the time. If the Film Library wasn't interested in taking on Enterprise material, then why did it accept The Power of the Daleks #6, The Daleks' Master Plan #4 and all of the other single-episode oddities that turned up at some point? The Film Library held a rag-bag of episodes and only one complete story. What 16mm prints they had acquired was more by accident than judgement and they would largely have come their way as the result of misdirected internal film traffic - easily done given the vast amout of film flying round the BBC at that time. Power of the Daleks 6, along with every other episode that had been recorded to and transmitted from 35mm was exactly where it should have been - in the Film Library, as a production that had originated on film. As I've already said, the Film Library would have rejected the prints had the been offered to them by BBC Enterprises (an accusation that's sometimes leveled at Enterprises by some people). But they weren't offered or given to them by Enterprises. They simply would have been gradually acquired, by accident, along with the vast amount of film going in and out of the library to various production offices.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 20:46:03 GMT
The man himself did not say what the outcome of the JCB dig was. Had it come to nothing I believe he would said this. Another promising hint from PM is found in the DWM # 466 PM interview with his, "Expected the unexpected" line. We are told to quote him on this. I am rationally expecting another batch of 10 episodes, or less (if we are lucky), to be handed in by him. To me that kind of 10-episode-expectation does not even come close to the category of 'unexpected'. There is nothing rational about this. The rational part is in keeping with the fact that there IS more Doctor Who coming back. That's not up for dispute. We have been told this by PM recently at the Fantom Films event. Given that we have been handed over 9 episodes (which should have been 10 and something more) by PM in the past, it is not irrational therefore to expect 10 more in the future. PM said in DWM# 466 that he hoped this wasn't a one-off. However the point is that this number 10 (or if you'd prefer, 1-2) still doesn't tally with Expect the Unexpected. We've seen 9 come back and know now that this sort of recovery can happen again. So that figure would still under the bracket of the Expected. He's asked us to quote him on this and I for one can't wait finally see revealled what his interpretation of the Unexpected is.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jun 5, 2018 21:13:07 GMT
Ill have to ask Paul about this off line, I'm intrigued and hope that its true
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Post by John Wall on Jun 5, 2018 22:02:06 GMT
There is nothing rational about this. The rational part is in keeping with the fact that there IS more Doctor Who coming back. That's not up for dispute. We have been told this by PM recently at the Fantom Films event. Given that we have been handed over 9 episodes (which should have been 10 and something more) by PM in the past, it is not irrational therefore to expect 10 more in the future. PM said in DWM# 466 that he hoped this wasn't a one-off. However the point is that this number 10 (or if you'd prefer, 1-2) still doesn't tally with Expect the Unexpected. We've seen 9 come back and know now that this sort of recovery can happen again. So that figure would still under the bracket of the Expected. He's asked us to quote him on this and I for one can't wait finally see revealled what his interpretation of the Unexpected is. There’s a lot of wishful thinking here, of the type we’ve seen for almost five years since Enemy and Web came back. PM has made various statements during that period and we’re still waiting. In terms of somewhere we know he’s put a lot of effort into, Nigeria, the most likely candidates are Snowmen and Wheel and we already have one episode from the former and two from the latter. This means that a few more episodes from each could make animation viable but there is no reason why both stories shouldn’t be recovered complete. At the moment though I’m keeping the champagne on ice!
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jun 5, 2018 22:34:55 GMT
At the moment though I’m keeping the champagne on ice! I'd live for the moment if I were you John! We are in exactly the same position we were before I said anything. Nothing has changed and as far as I am concerned no episodes are coming back anytime soon. If a benefactor chooses to return something, great. That could of course happen anytime and doesn't need my involvement. There could be another Francis Watson or Terry Burnett going through their collections right now and ringing the BBC. So yes, lots of wishful thinking and if I hadn't been asked the question, I wouldn't have said anything. It changes nothing. Paul
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Post by John Wall on Jun 5, 2018 22:44:26 GMT
At the moment though I’m keeping the champagne on ice! I'd live for the moment if I were you John! We are in exactly the same position we were before I said anything. Nothing has changed and as far as I am concerned no episodes are coming back anytime soon. If a benefactor chooses to return something, great. That could of course happen anytime and doesn't need my involvement. There could be another Francis Watson or Terry Burnett going through their collections right now and ringing the BBC. So yes, lots of wishful thinking and if I hadn't been asked the question, I wouldn't have said anything. It changes nothing. Paul Wet blankets of the world unite:-(
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jun 6, 2018 3:37:47 GMT
The Film Library held the entirety of An Unearthly Child, The Dominators and most (if not all at some point) of The Invasion, The Krotons and The Seeds of Death.I know the primary function of the Film Library was for newsreels and stock-shots, according to the BBC Handbook at the time. If the Film Library wasn't interested in taking on Enterprise material, then why did it accept The Power of the Daleks #6, The Daleks' Master Plan #4 and all of the other single-episode oddities that turned up at some point? The Film Library held a rag-bag of episodes and only one complete story. What 16mm prints they had acquired was more by accident than judgement and they would largely have come their way as the result of misdirected internal film traffic - easily done given the vast amout of film flying round the BBC at that time. Power of the Daleks 6, along with every other episode that had been recorded to and transmitted from 35mm was exactly where it should have been - in the Film Library, as a production that had originated on film. As I've already said, the Film Library would have rejected the prints had the been offered to them by BBC Enterprises (an accusation that's sometimes leveled at Enterprises by some people). But they weren't offered or given to them by Enterprises. They simply would have been gradually acquired, by accident, along with the vast amount of film going in and out of the library to various production offices. Bear in mind too, that while the film library had mostly those episodes on 35mm negative, Enterprises had the bulk of what was on 16mm, both negatives and some positives; the people putting Whose Doctor Who together in late 1976 went to both locations to look at the available positives. Then ... about a year later, in late 1977, Ian Levine spent several days at the film library looking at what they had when he was negotiating to buy copies. And based on his account of what episodes he viewed while there (as reported in DWB in 1992), this included some of the episodes that Enterprises had in 1976. Some have concluded that Enterprises and the library must have held duplicates of the same episodes, whereas I suspect what happened was that the people that Levine was dealing with had arranged for Enterprises to send the positives they had to the film library for Levine to view them, since that was where he was going to be. (It wasn't until the following year that Levine went to Enterprises' base at Villiers House and found all the negatives which Enterprises still had.) When Sue Malden contacted the film library in 1978 while seeking prints, all those episodes that Levine had viewed were still there; they hadn't been returned to Enterprises. This could at least explain the "rag-bag" of holdings that the library had when the archive was initially set up.
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