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Post by John Wall on Jun 1, 2018 8:51:08 GMT
I really think Morgan Freeman was right in his stance regarding Black History Month, and the reasons for his non-support of it. In an ideal world - yes, I would agree. In this world, as it stands, the history curriculum that is specified for delivery in UK schools doesn't have much to say about pre colonial African civilisations with the exception of Ancient Egypt, and you don't really get much of a mention that Ancient Egypt was an African civilisation and the strong evidence, as presented by prof. Cheikh Anta Diop et al, that this ancient African civilisation was populated by Black Africans. No mention of the Songhai empire, the Swahili confederation etc. In fact Africa is nearly always painted as a culturally impoverished and generally backwards continent that Europeans somehow brought culture to, which couldn't really be further from the truth as Africa had sciences and arts when the evidence suggests most of Europe was still on stone axes. It would be lovely if we lived in an era where history was taught in a factual and balanced way, the crimes of the empire included; as it stands though, black history month is usually the only opportunity for other voices to be heard. On the topic of the stereotypes portrayed in Talons, they are a little uncomfortable to my eyes. It was only a few years after Talons that the series 'The Chinese detective' was made which was comparatively speaking, light years ahead in its attitude and treatment of minority groups. I still like the giant sewer rat though It’s a little off topic but it needs to made clear that the ancient Egyptians were little different from the modern Egyptians and pseudo historians like Diop shouldn’t be given any credence.
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Post by Greg H on Jun 1, 2018 9:26:27 GMT
In an ideal world - yes, I would agree. In this world, as it stands, the history curriculum that is specified for delivery in UK schools doesn't have much to say about pre colonial African civilisations with the exception of Ancient Egypt, and you don't really get much of a mention that Ancient Egypt was an African civilisation and the strong evidence, as presented by prof. Cheikh Anta Diop et al, that this ancient African civilisation was populated by Black Africans. No mention of the Songhai empire, the Swahili confederation etc. In fact Africa is nearly always painted as a culturally impoverished and generally backwards continent that Europeans somehow brought culture to, which couldn't really be further from the truth as Africa had sciences and arts when the evidence suggests most of Europe was still on stone axes. It would be lovely if we lived in an era where history was taught in a factual and balanced way, the crimes of the empire included; as it stands though, black history month is usually the only opportunity for other voices to be heard. On the topic of the stereotypes portrayed in Talons, they are a little uncomfortable to my eyes. It was only a few years after Talons that the series 'The Chinese detective' was made which was comparatively speaking, light years ahead in its attitude and treatment of minority groups. I still like the giant sewer rat though It’s a little off topic but it needs to made clear that the ancient Egyptians were little different from the modern Egyptians and pseudo historians like Diop shouldn’t be given any credence. I disagree. I have read various theories suggesting that the Ancient Egyptians were the same as Greeks, were various types of European and virtually every race other than Black Africans living on the African continent. Indeed, looking at casual portraiture of the day (rather than the highly stylised fine art pieces), a large number of those portrayed look suspiciously dark skinned and African in their features which can be taken as somewhat indicative of the population's ethnicity. I am inclined to give Diop more credence than his detractors, who were often motivated by somewhat racist views of Africans in general. Diop did not seek the approval of academics mired in institutionalised racism as he rightly assumed he would not get their approval! Regardless of your views of race in ancient Egypt, this doesn't really detract from the facts regarding advanced civilisations across the African continent prior to the European invasion and subsequent systematic destruction of all of those cultures in a an unparalleled campaign of aggression and exploitation. Africa had several advanced civilisations prior to Europeans plundering Africa's wealth to finance Europe's own civilisation and children should be taught the facts regarding this rather than being given the impression that Europe did Africa a favour by bringing light to their backwards continent! Hence the need for black history month still in the 21st century!
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Post by tom rogers on Jun 1, 2018 10:13:24 GMT
Yup, modern DNA analysis has proven as much. Very, very little difference genetically from ancient and modern populations there (not Greek, not sub-Saharan or any other group, only Egyptian), which in itself is amazing given the numbers of invading peoples that have rolled through Egypt throughout that time. However, Greg's broader point in terms of the existence and scope of civilizations in the continent and their denigration by outsiders is still, IMVHO, valid. Cultures are like sponges and are always evolving and morphing as a result of this absorption from other cultures.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 1, 2018 11:12:58 GMT
It’s a little off topic but it needs to made clear that the ancient Egyptians were little different from the modern Egyptians and pseudo historians like Diop shouldn’t be given any credence. I disagree. I have read various theories suggesting that the Ancient Egyptians were the same as Greeks, were various types of European and virtually every race other than Black Africans living on the African continent. Indeed, looking at casual portraiture of the day (rather than the highly stylised fine art pieces), a large number of those portrayed look suspiciously dark skinned and African in their features which can be taken as somewhat indicative of the population's ethnicity. I am inclined to give Diop more credence than his detractors, who were often motivated by somewhat racist views of Africans in general. Diop did not seek the approval of academics mired in institutionalised racism as he rightly assumed he would not get their approval! Regardless of your views of race in ancient Egypt, this doesn't really detract from the facts regarding advanced civilisations across the African continent prior to the European invasion and subsequent systematic destruction of all of those cultures in a an unparalleled campaign of aggression and exploitation. Africa had several advanced civilisations prior to Europeans plundering Africa's wealth to finance Europe's own civilisation and children should be taught the facts regarding this rather than being given the impression that Europe did Africa a favour by bringing light to their backwards continent! Hence the need for black history month still in the 21st century! Read the post immediately below yours. I’ve studied ancient Egypt for decades and Afrocentrism, from Diop, et al, is a politically motivated dead end. It is actually cultural rape as it seeks to strip their heritage from the modern Egyptians who are the direct descendants of the pyramid builders.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jun 1, 2018 11:53:36 GMT
It’s a little off topic but it needs to made clear that the ancient Egyptians were little different from the modern Egyptians and pseudo historians like Diop shouldn’t be given any credence. I disagree. I have read various theories suggesting that the Ancient Egyptians were the same as Greeks, were various types of European and virtually every race other than Black Africans living on the African continent. Indeed, looking at casual portraiture of the day (rather than the highly stylised fine art pieces), a large number of those portrayed look suspiciously dark skinned and African in their features which can be taken as somewhat indicative of the population's ethnicity. I am inclined to give Diop more credence than his detractors, who were often motivated by somewhat racist views of Africans in general. Diop did not seek the approval of academics mired in institutionalised racism as he rightly assumed he would not get their approval! Regardless of your views of race in ancient Egypt, this doesn't really detract from the facts regarding advanced civilisations across the African continent prior to the European invasion and subsequent systematic destruction of all of those cultures in a an unparalleled campaign of aggression and exploitation. Africa had several advanced civilisations prior to Europeans plundering Africa's wealth to finance Europe's own civilisation and children should be taught the facts regarding this rather than being given the impression that Europe did Africa a favour by bringing light to their backwards continent! Hence the need for black history month still in the 21st century! Most North-Africans are relatively light-skinned. Where did they come from, and when did they replace the previous population? The ancient world that we're talking about looked like this: It might take a moment to recognize but it's the mediterranean. Not a continent, but water determined history. They weren't really discriminating on skin colour in antiquity. This whole "continent versus continent" approach seems oversimplistic when applied to antiquity. Also, the view above might have gone too far back in the other direction with regard to wealth and civilization. The description sounds more like South/Latin America. The Arabs used to be ahead, but haven't there been empires and civilizations everywhere? Just because Africa was victimized, doesn't necessarily mean that it was a paradise waiting to happen if only white man hadn't dropped in and fucked it all up. Even though that last part is what happened.
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Post by John Wall on Jun 1, 2018 12:42:14 GMT
Egypt is a melting pot, because of its location, and the general population hasn’t really changed much in millennia.
Skin colour is simply an evolutionary response to the environment - the further south towards the equator the darker the skin. Egypt is probably slightly darker nowadays as there was a population movement when lower Nubia was flooded by the Aswan High Dam.
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Post by George D on Jun 1, 2018 15:58:14 GMT
We have definitely gotten off topic but I'm curious what the reason is we can't respect the cultural heritage of other races.
Charlie Chan was based on a real Asian Hawaiian detective and he loved that he was an hero now.
He was a good role model, smart,honest, and because he spoke in a Chinese accent I'd no reason to put him down
Also, fu Manchu was based on a real Chinese mafia figure.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2018 22:12:33 GMT
As a great Irish poet once wrote, "We're one, but we're not the same."
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Post by tom rogers on Jun 1, 2018 23:33:36 GMT
As a great Irish poet once wrote, "We're one, but we're not the same." And how about a great British poet, who wrote, "I am he as you are he as you are me And we are all together See how they run like pigs from a gun See how they fly I'm crying"
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Post by John Wall on Jun 2, 2018 0:06:25 GMT
Back to Talons....
Personally I’ve always enjoyed it, forget the rat!, it’s a rare example of a true six parter - not a padded 4 parter or a 2 + 4 parter. Yes, it’s derivative but a lot of Who is and it’s akways interesting to see the “twist” put onto the “borrowings”. It’s also a period piece - like Dad’s Army - and the portrayal of, in particular, Chinese characters is probably not that inaccurate for late Victorian London.
Robert Holmes was born in 1926 and has now, sadly, been dead for over 30 years. I have no idea of his politics/worldview but I rememberJohnny Speight and Alf Garnett who was created to show up racism and bigotry but, unfortunately, was seen as a “hero” by those very people.
To some extent I see Chang as a similar creation, showing up the prejudices of the late 19th century. In that period I doubt that the Chinese, or any immigrants, had any status and the Chinese laundry stereotype is probably reasonable. Chang, however, is top of the bill and highly intelligent. Chinese civilisation is far more ancient and venerable and he, probably correctly, looks down on the late Victorians. In the first episode he say)s “I understand we all look the same” and subsequently “One of us is yellow”. There are other instances where he gets the better of, for example, Jago.
Ultimately he’s a tragic character having been taken in by Weng Chiang/Greel but I don’t see him as in any way inferior.
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Jun 2, 2018 8:09:00 GMT
Back to Talons.... Personally I’ve always enjoyed it, forget the rat!, it’s a rare example of a true six parter - not a padded 4 parter or a 2 + 4 parter. Yes, it’s derivative but a lot of Who is and it’s akways interesting to see the “twist” put onto the “borrowings”. It’s also a period piece - like Dad’s Army - and the portrayal of, in particular, Chinese characters is probably not that inaccurate for late Victorian London. Robert Holmes was born in 1926 and has now, sadly, been dead for over 30 years. I have no idea of his politics/worldview but I rememberJohnny Speight and Alf Garnett who was created to show up racism and bigotry but, unfortunately, was seen as a “hero” by those very people. To some extent I see Chang as a similar creation, showing up the prejudices of the late 19th century. In that period I doubt that the Chinese, or any immigrants, had any status and the Chinese laundry stereotype is probably reasonable. Chang, however, is top of the bill and highly intelligent. Chinese civilisation is far more ancient and venerable and he, probably correctly, looks down on the late Victorians. In the first episode he say)s “I understand we all look the same” and subsequently “One of us is yellow”. There are other instances where he gets the better of, for example, Jago. Ultimately he’s a tragic character having been taken in by Weng Chiang/Greel but I don’t see him as in any way inferior. I'm not a great fan of Talons.Although it isn't bad,it's redolent of 1970s 'Victoriana' syndrome-all those video-taped melodramas set in Victorian drawing rooms-Upstairs Downstairs,Duchess Of Duke Street,Phantom Raspberry Blower Of Old London Town...
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Jun 2, 2018 12:11:05 GMT
We have definitely gotten off topic but I'm curious what the reason is we can't respect the cultural heritage of other races. Charlie Chan was based on a real Asian Hawaiian detective and he loved that he was an hero now. He was a good role model, smart,honest, and because he spoke in a Chinese accent I'd no reason to put him down Also, fu Manchu was based on a real Chinese mafia figure. Perfectly respect the cultural heritage of other races. What we're (or were) criticising here is stereotyping - or imagining that those stereotypes are the be all and end all of the culture. Richard
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Post by matthewhewitt on Nov 12, 2018 21:55:00 GMT
I am very great full to have episodes 1 and 4-6 on my DVD shelf pity fury 6 was not there to.... Agreed all round. The loss of parts 2 and 3 is terrible, but I actually like the combined recon episode that was made to fill the gap. I do enjoy the Loose Cannon recons for both episodes but still watch the combined recon frequently. I think it works very well in this particular spot in this particular series. Although well presented, the VHS recon completely guts the story IMO: eps 2 & 3 set up the conflict between Clent and Penley, which is the real focus of the story (not the Ice Warriors), by condensing it to the 'essentials' this gets completely lost. It's interesting how often the 'logic vs. intuition' theme cropped up in the Troughton era and not just in the Pedler/Davis stories.
I also can't agree with those saying it has poor production values: I think it's a beautifully atmospheric serial and from a technical standpoint, holds up much better than many futuristic stories of the period.
One of my favourite stories from possibly my favourite season.
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Nov 13, 2018 0:30:01 GMT
Being reminded of threads like these make me miss the one and only Ed Hodson: the most over-optimistic ME enthusiast we're ever likely to see. Where did he go? We must petition for his immediate reinstatement on the site!
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Post by Sue Butcher on Nov 14, 2018 0:08:38 GMT
Agreed all round. The loss of parts 2 and 3 is terrible, but I actually like the combined recon episode that was made to fill the gap. I do enjoy the Loose Cannon recons for both episodes but still watch the combined recon frequently. I think it works very well in this particular spot in this particular series. Although well presented, the VHS recon completely guts the story IMO: eps 2 & 3 set up the conflict between Clent and Penley, which is the real focus of the story (not the Ice Warriors), by condensing it to the 'essentials' this gets completely lost. It's interesting how often the 'logic vs. intuition' theme cropped up in the Troughton era and not just in the Pedler/Davis stories. I also can't agree with those saying it has poor production values: I think it's a beautifully atmospheric serial and from a technical standpoint, holds up much better than many futuristic stories of the period.
One of my favourite stories from possibly my favourite season.
I agree, one of Troughton's best. There are a couple of production fumbles, but the scenes in the ice look really good. Brrr!
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