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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Apr 15, 2018 10:46:46 GMT
The article states that The Ice Warriors was rejected because of it's silly scenery, costumes and obscure scripts - yet when Germany finally did accept Doctor Who, they broadcast Time and the Rani. Quite ironic that the first thing they show is a 'story' with possibly the lowest production values of the entire series, yet rejected a story that was in all respects better made. Unfortunately I agree with the German TV executives - the Ice Warriors isn't great and the juxtaposition of the Crossroads interiors in a polar base is just plain wrong!And it's just plain boring. At least The Ice Warriors is an actual story, unlike Time and the Rani. Just sayin'...
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 15, 2018 15:18:50 GMT
Unfortunately I agree with the German TV executives - the Ice Warriors isn't great and the juxtaposition of the Crossroads interiors in a polar base is just plain wrong!And it's just plain boring. At least The Ice Warriors is an actual story, unlike Time and the Rani. Just sayin'... Actually, I prefer Time and the Rani over the Ice Warriors. It's more engaging than the latter. The addition of the animations to complete the story, something which usually greatly enhances a partially missing story does nothing to make it more interesting I'm afraid. Probably one of the few B/W stories I can never get to the end.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Apr 15, 2018 15:53:03 GMT
At least The Ice Warriors is an actual story, unlike Time and the Rani. Just sayin'... Actually, I prefer Time and the Rani over the Ice Warriors. It's more engaging than the latter. The addition of the animations to complete the story, something which usually greatly enhances a partially missing story does nothing to make it more interesting I'm afraid. Probably one of the few B/W stories I can never get to the end. I always view the classic serials in terms of what they were trying to achieve, not necessarily what they actually achieved. To that end, I appreciate the enigmatic atmosphere of The Ice Warriors - almost like a larger, monster-filled Inside the Spaceship serial. It's a similar character-heavy story, whereas Time and the Rani is completely character-light. The Ice Warriors possibly would have worked better if it were a four-parter, but then again, that could be said of many of the 60s serials.
Even Andrew Cartmel admitted in a DVD extra that Time and the Rani was a serial where nothing actually happened. The 'story' is a hotchpotch of disjointed ideas thrown together with no central plot. After two wasted episodes, The Doctor vaguely states that the Rani's plans have got "something to do with time", then it's all about capturing famous scientists for a master brain, which later changes into something about a universal time manipulator, then about stopping a rocket from hitting a strange matter asteroid. The rest is just padding and playing with spoons. Seriously - what is going on here? Good ideas in isolation, but with no story-binding it falls to pieces. At least The Ice Warriors is plot-solid. I must concede, however, that the cliff-hangers are quite good.
The biggest issue I have with Time and the Rani is that you can clearly see that it doesn't work, but more importantly, you see that it would never have worked. If Time and the Rani was partially missing, and The Ice Warriors was not, I think only a handful of people would lament its absence and protest for its return. In my opinion, and against this standard, The Ice Warriors is the superior serial.
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Apr 15, 2018 16:49:01 GMT
Personally, I'd just like to junk every single episode of Sylvester McCoy's run and get the equivalent number of Troughton's episodes in return. Can't bring myself to watch a single episode of McCoy's again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 19:34:15 GMT
The latest twist in the rumour is that The Ice Warriors was broadcast in Germany by Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen somewhere between 1998 and 2001. Myself I can't see how a broadcaster would screen a set of audition prints they didn't originally option, nor pay for the rights to broadcast. They would not have the clearance to do so, even years later!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Apr 15, 2018 20:38:00 GMT
?? Surely if such a broadcast took place everyone would know about it because PEOPLE WOULD HAVE RECORDED IT, and there'd be hundreds of copies in circulation. (It would be dubbed into German, but that's by the by.)
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Post by John Green on Apr 15, 2018 20:50:28 GMT
Would that be East or West Germany,?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 21:01:35 GMT
Would that be East or West Germany,? By 1998 it would be Germany only.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 21:11:16 GMT
?? Surely if such a broadcast took place everyone would know about it because PEOPLE WOULD HAVE RECORDED IT, and there'd be hundreds of copies in circulation. (It would be dubbed into German, but that's by the by.) I don't know how strong the fanbase is in Germany, Jon? Some broadcasts in recent years of Pop Who, but not a great deal there on TV. There is this German forum discussion in 2011 about the ZDF 'Ice Warriors broadcast', and the year 1989 is mentioned: www.drwho.de/forum/index.php/Thread/4686-Warum-Doctor-Who-erst-1989-im-deutschen-Fernsehen-gezeigt-wurde-Artikel-von-Seri/Perhaps it was shown in East Germany, if 1989? If so, it would have been broadcast from Fernsehturm Berlin. I wonder if the tower still has an archive? There is a revolving restaurant there now. Perhaps the Ice Warriors audition prints are lurking in some kitchen cupboard, among the frankfurters? Or maybe they use the film cans for storing the frankfurters. Like Australian film cans used for LPs.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Apr 15, 2018 21:42:34 GMT
Fandom in Germany is huge. The series is very popular -- lots of newly-dubbed classic Who has recently been released on DVD there. As for 1989, that's when RTL aired the McCoy series. gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/Germany
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 21:47:23 GMT
Fandom in Germany is huge. The series is very popular -- lots of newly-dubbed classic Who has recently been released on DVD there. As for 1989, that's when RTL aired the McCoy series. gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/GermanyOk, thanks, Jon. There is some discussion though about The Ice Warriors and ZDF on the forum... Are there any German speakers on here, or any of our German brothers and sisters in the ME cause on here to help out with translation? Thanks in advance...
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Post by Luke Sherlaw on Apr 15, 2018 21:57:30 GMT
Fandom in Germany is huge. The series is very popular -- lots of newly-dubbed classic Who has recently been released on DVD there. As for 1989, that's when RTL aired the McCoy series. gallifreybase.com/w/index.php/GermanyAre there any German speakers on here, or any of our German brothers and sisters in the ME cause on here to help out with translation? Thanks in advance... What part do you want translating?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 23:14:37 GMT
Are there any German speakers on here, or any of our German brothers and sisters in the ME cause on here to help out with translation? Thanks in advance... What part do you want translating? This part would be great: Am 28. Mai 1968 tagte zum 53. Mal die Serienkommission des ZDF. Diese war von der Programmdirektion des Senders 1966 eingerichtet worden, um hausintern thematische Überschneidungen zu vermeiden und zügig, nach einheitlichen Bewertungsmaßstäben Empfehlungen für den Ankauf von Lizenzserien auszusprechen.
Das ZDF, welches 1963 den Sendebetrieb aufgenommen hatte, galt im Vergleich zum Ersten Deutschen Fernsehen sehr schnell als unterhaltungsaffiner - und gerade im Serienbereich als experimentierfreudig. So ist es kaum ein Zufall, dass alle drei oben genannten Serienklassiker - von Mrs. Peel bis Mr. Spock - auf dem zunächst in Eschborn, später dann in Mainz beheimateten Sender zu sehen gewesen waren.
Auch der Ankauf von "Doctor Who" wurde in der besagten Sitzung vom Mai 1968 diskutiert. Dazu hatten sich die Teilnehmer im Vorfeld die sechsteilige Episode „The Ice Warriors“ (1967) angeschaut.
Darin landet der Doctor mit seinen Begleitern Jamie und Victoria auf der Erde der Zukunft, die unter einer hereinbrechenden Eiszeit leidet. Ein Team von Wissenschaftlern versucht der Bedrohung Großbritanniens durch die gewaltigen Gletscher Herr zu werden. Dabei machen sie eine unheimliche Entdeckung: Eine riesige Kreatur im Eis, die plötzlich wieder zum Leben erwacht... Das Urteil der ZDF-Redakteure fiel vernichtend aus: „Die Filme sind in Dekor und Kostümen ebenso naiv wie die Bücher undurchschaubar. Die Ablehnung erfolgt einstimmig.“ Damit war das Thema DW für das ZDF erst einmal vom Tisch.
Leider kann man sich heute keinen umfassenden Eindruck mehr von der betreffenden Folge machen. „The Ice Warriors“ gehört zu den frühen DW-Episoden, die nicht mehr vollständig erhalten geblieben sind. Immerhin: der erste Teil existiert noch. Und so gerne man auch auf die ZDF-Redakteure ihrer Ignoranz wegen schimpfen möchte, völlig unbegreiflich ist ihr Urteil - jedenfalls unter dem Gesichtspunkt der technischen Qualität, auch im Vergleich zu dem, was damals schon möglich war - nicht.But then there's all the replies (in German) to this on the forum! www.drwho.de/forum/index.php/Thread/4686-Warum-Doctor-Who-erst-1989-im-deutschen-Fernsehen-gezeigt-wurde-Artikel-von-Seri/
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Post by Jon Preddle on Apr 16, 2018 0:36:28 GMT
You could just use Google Translate to automatically translate the page for you...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 9:48:38 GMT
Done. As well as an apparent quote from a ZDF executive as to what he thought of The Ice Warriors at the time, one of the German posters also wonders if the audition prints might still be in the archive.
It would be a miracle if they were still in Germany, because, if we recall, The Ice Warriors 2 missings eps were not listed as among those recovered in the 'big haul', aka the Omnirumour, back in 2013! A case here of two fantasy stories (The Omnirumor & ZDF) actually complimenting each other, by sheer coincidence.
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