Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2018 23:20:23 GMT
Reading fresh (and upsetting) rumours online now of a complete set of prints of The Ice Warriors being destroyed in Germany by broadcaster ZDF (Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen) as late as 2016. This is absolutely appalling if true and is another addition to a growing list of recent wipings or disappearances of Doctor Who ( Marco Polo in 1997, The Web of Fear 3 in 2012). The 1960s, or 1970s you would expect this to happen as par for the course, but not as recently as 2016. What is a happening here with all these missing Doctor Who episodes that are still out there, not being found and so left to the fate of modern day destruction, albeit in ignorance. This rumour centres around a set of audition prints that were offered to ZDF in 1965, only to have been rejected by the Broadcaster. However, like so many of the unknown whereabouts of these audition prints, the set was assumed to have made its way back to the UK after rejection... but this was not the case. It came to light at some point that it was still in the hands of ZDF and arrangements where made by someone from the BBC to rescue these prints, only for the entire set to come to grief "weeks before recovery". If true, this story is yet another eye-opener as to the potential 'gold mine' of audition prints, and means we should be taking this area more seriously with searches in any areas that received these prints. Some information about The Ice Warriors offering to Germany: www.doctorwhonews.net/2017/07/doctor-who-in-germany-timeline.htmlCan anyone please substantiate this surprising and shocking rumour, or better still, quash it if it is completely fabricated? I hope and pray it is all just a rumour. It would be a dark day for Who Fandom if not, a very sad case of so near and yet so far.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Apr 13, 2018 23:28:58 GMT
It says, "since German TV back then was already archiving most of their shows for repeat purposes."...
Well, think again. I have asked ZDF a few times for 1960s programs and many were "unavailable" (permanently, you understand). If they couldn't even keep their own shows safe, why would others fare better? They were also really early buyers of Till Death, but they didn't keep those either.
Germans are all very nice and all, but let's not overestimate them too far.
So I am skeptical unless and until definite proof is given.
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Post by simonashby on Apr 14, 2018 0:05:39 GMT
Sensationalist.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Apr 14, 2018 0:14:52 GMT
The ZDF audition prints of the Ice Warriors has been known about since April of 2011 when the website Serien Junkies reported it in their article. ( www.serienjunkies.de/news/doctor-who-deutschland-kein-ort-31751-2.html ) It wasn't brought to this message board's attention until late 2011. ( missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/6674/ice-warriors-viewing-prints-germany?page=1 ) This is well before 2016. Immediate research was started by Jon Preddle who contacted the author of the article and ZDF. As with all things, it took time for this research to happen and it wasn't until May of 2012 that Mr. Preddle could report back. ZDF confirmed that they did have audition prints at one point in 1968, but they no longer had them. Jon can certainly comment if he needs to, but I believe that there's no knowledge about what happened to them ... only that ZDF no longer carried them. I do not know if further research has occurred since then to determine if and when they were sent back to the BBC, to another country, or destroyed. Please keep in mind that there is a dispute about this current rumor's origins. Individuals who were present at the time it started have disputed what was said. Let's give them the space needed to work it out.
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Post by Robert Lia on Apr 14, 2018 0:22:57 GMT
Another click bait rumor, this as Mark has posted above was investigated at least 6 yeas ago. ZDF had them back in 1968 but there was no evidence to show they were retained for 45 years.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Apr 14, 2018 1:18:20 GMT
Based on what we know definitely happened and when, in early 1968 the BBC was attempting to sell 'Doctor Who' to Europe. They failed.
The NZBC had sent its prints of the first three serials (13 eps) to Denmark in March 1968, and anecdotal evidence indicates that a TV station in Norway auditioned at least one Dalek story around that same time. (I suspect that Denmark sent the ex-NZ eps to Norway.) A few months later, Germany is looking at The Ice Warriors. Although I can't prove it, I suspect they also saw the first 13 eps -- a quick glance at an altas will show that Norway, Denmark and Germany are all in a direct line of each other -- I doubt that that was a coincidence.
As I've speculated on BroaDWcast, having seen the first 13 episdoes, ZDF may have requested to see a 'new' serial to compare production values, so they were sent The Ice Warriors, which by May 1968 had just been sold to Australia. From the wording of the rejection reports, it looks like ZDF didn't think much of the production values, hence why it was turned down.
It's unlikely they'd hang onto the rejected film prints; eps 1-13 (if they had them) would have been sent on to the next intended victim in Europe, while Ice Warriors would have gone back to the BBC - and presumably joined the pool of prints to be bicycled to the next country that bought from season five, which was Hong Kong in late 1969.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Apr 14, 2018 9:21:52 GMT
The article states that The Ice Warriors was rejected because of it's silly scenery, costumes and obscure scripts - yet when Germany finally did accept Doctor Who, they broadcast Time and the Rani. Quite ironic that the first thing they show is a 'story' with possibly the lowest production values of the entire series, yet rejected a story that was in all respects better made.
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Post by Roland Martin on Apr 14, 2018 16:26:22 GMT
What's the story about Marco Polo from 1997? I don't think I've heard that one.
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Post by Richard Tipple on Apr 14, 2018 16:52:57 GMT
What's the story about Marco Polo from 1997? I don't think I've heard that one. I believe it was '96? And refers to the Australian censor clips being destroyed.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Apr 14, 2018 22:00:21 GMT
The article states that The Ice Warriors was rejected because of it's silly scenery, costumes and obscure scripts - yet when Germany finally did accept Doctor Who, they broadcast Time and the Rani. Quite ironic that the first thing they show is a 'story' with possibly the lowest production values of the entire series, yet rejected a story that was in all respects better made. Well ... it was ZDF that turned down Doctor Who in 1968, but RTL - an entirely different TV station! - that acquired it in 1989... I did wonder whether the assessment team mistakenly thought "Doctor Who" was a series set in a futuristic research base that gets attacked by strange creatures on a weekly basis -- hence the unusual description of it being a "Utopian series".
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Post by kurt devery on Apr 14, 2018 23:25:03 GMT
I am very great full to have episodes 1 and 4-6 on my DVD shelf pity fury 6 was not there to....
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Post by tom rogers on Apr 15, 2018 0:51:30 GMT
I am very great full to have episodes 1 and 4-6 on my DVD shelf pity fury 6 was not there to.... Agreed all round. The loss of parts 2 and 3 is terrible, but I actually like the combined recon episode that was made to fill the gap. I do enjoy the Loose Cannon recons for both episodes but still watch the combined recon frequently. I think it works very well in this particular spot in this particular series.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 1:29:53 GMT
What's the story about Marco Polo from 1997? I don't think I've heard that one. I believe it was '96? And refers to the Australian censor clips being destroyed. No, it was in 1997, Nigeria, with a complete Marco Polo being junked. Nigeria TV station had all 7 episodes, and called up BBC Worldwide to helpfully enquire if they were still wanted the prints. Whoever took the call made the assumption that BBC Worldwide already had the story out on VHS and gave the person on the other end of the phone their blessing to junk the episodes. This was the previous discussion about it: missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/12273/doctor-missing-existing-episode-predictions?page=4I wonder which recent junking we'll hear about next? I just hope they're all back now, safe from further risk of eradication. And in a fire and flood resistant room. Can you imagine if those being stored ready for the next when-you-least-expect-it-announcement somehow ended up coming to grief?
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Post by Jaspal Cheema on Apr 15, 2018 6:12:06 GMT
The article states that The Ice Warriors was rejected because of it's silly scenery, costumes and obscure scripts - yet when Germany finally did accept Doctor Who, they broadcast Time and the Rani. Quite ironic that the first thing they show is a 'story' with possibly the lowest production values of the entire series, yet rejected a story that was in all respects better made. Unfortunately I agree with the German TV executives - the Ice Warriors isn't great and the juxtaposition of the Crossroads interiors in a polar base is just plain wrong!And it's just plain boring.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Apr 15, 2018 10:45:51 GMT
The article states that The Ice Warriors was rejected because of it's silly scenery, costumes and obscure scripts - yet when Germany finally did accept Doctor Who, they broadcast Time and the Rani. Quite ironic that the first thing they show is a 'story' with possibly the lowest production values of the entire series, yet rejected a story that was in all respects better made. Well ... it was ZDF that turned down Doctor Who in 1968, but RTL - an entirely different TV station! - that acquired it in 1989... I did wonder whether the assessment team mistakenly thought "Doctor Who" was a series set in a futuristic research base that gets attacked by strange creatures on a weekly basis -- hence the unusual description of it being a "Utopian series". I know that, but the point is that the standard by which the television companies feel the German people would appreciate didn't go up over time - if anything, it went down. Time and the Rani is the epitome of silly scenery, costumes and VERY obscure scripts.
That's an interesting point, but I'm sure they'd have been given background information as part of the audition as anyone trying a new product would. No one just hands over a film tin and says "watch this"! It may not have been a comprehensive description, but I'd at least think they were aware of it's science fiction content, it's characters, and it's younger target audience. They'd need to know the basics of the series first, or else why would they be auditioning it for potential broadcast?
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