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Post by Ed Brown on Jul 20, 2019 11:55:56 GMT
If it was obvious that one of the cans waiting for the bin lorry was a Dalek episode, you might expect a picker to take it. But so far only Evil 2 has been returned from the Troughton junkings. It seems probable, perhaps only to me(?), that any film collector who happened upon an orphan print of a Dalek episode would want to keep it. I can well understand that if you only had a middle episode of a dull serial, like 'Galaxy 4', you might let it go to a car boot sale, because a middle ep with no beginning or end to the story might seem even more dull than the complete serial (since a lone episode is completely without any context). But a Dalek episode might seem interesting in itself. Even an orphan episode. Chances are, a film buff would hang onto any interesting items, so that the only random episodes that turn up are from 'Underwater Menace' or 'The Crusade'. These serials seem interesting to us, but really, one odd episode of a story that has no end, and no exciting Monster, could "escape" back into circulation. But a Dalek episode? Never! The fact that orphan prints of Dalek and Cyber serials don't turn up is that such a print is interesting in itself, to a film fan. It doesn't mean those prints don't exist, it is a consequence of the inherent interest in those monsters. We believe that the Yeti are sufficiently popular for someone to steal the print of Web 3 at a Nigerian tv station in 2013, so why would we not believe that a print of a Dalek story would be equally sought-after. By their very nature, these are items that won't be wandering round the car-boot circuit. The point about Australia is, of course, that ABC were forced by geography to strike duplicate prints if they wanted to air any episode in more than one state at a time, in the old days, so there were lots more opportunities for prints to go walkabout. ABC in Port Moresby, ABC in Darwin, in Perth, in Sydney, in ACT/Canberra: all these places were wide open to staff who wanted a souvenir, whenever the ABC wanted to have a clear-out of contract-expired items. It's not theft, where it's been thrown away.
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Post by Ed Brown on Jul 20, 2019 12:14:17 GMT
why would they keep duplicates used for their own internal purposes - there'd be no reason, particularly after they had destroyed or returned the original films from the BBC. About the only thing it might mean is a slight increase in the chance of something ending up in private hands. These films, like all items sold by BBC Enterprises, were stamped with a contract-expiry date. You could air them up until that date, then you couldn't air them again. Once an item was a couple of years past its contacted date, it was pretty clear the ABC was not going to renew the contract so some thought would then be given to clearing it off the shelf to free-up space. At that point, it would be given away to a local film club or collector, or to a film enthusiast on the station's staff. Otherwise it might get binned. Rarely would a print be sent back to London, because there was no enforcement procedure, as the ABC never re-showed out of contract items. No enquiry was ever made from London, and it was just left to the local station managers what became of duplicate or ex-contract material. Vinyl records from the radio stations in Oz nearly always made it to a local record store, for a private resale to the general public. There were film clubs too. And schools, libraries, colleges teaching media studies: the possibilities are endless as to where this type of 16mm material ended up.
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Post by Ed Brown on Jul 20, 2019 13:14:53 GMT
Do we know if the BBC atually asked ABC to send back that crate of prints in 1975??? Or did ABC just ship them back to get shot of them??? I have 2 problems with the BBC asking ABC to return them - 1- ABC had been hanging onto these stories for years since their last official broadcast in Australia, so why didn't the BBC ask for their return years earlier which would have later saved them from making more prints to sell to other countries when sales of 60's stories were still high. By summer 1975 the sales of 60's stories was almost non existent, the 4 season five stories sold to Nigeria had already been screened by this point and I think only a few season 6 stories were sold to Zambia in 1976 were I think the last Hartnell/Troughton sales of the 70's. 2- The BBC had already started junking 60's prints by 1975 and most of the ABC returns suffered the same fate, so why not just tell ABC to destroy them instead of asking them to return the prints for the BBC to junk. You won't find a paper-trail to follow, since the basic policy was not to request the return of items. A request could be telexed to station A in country A to cycle a set of prints to station B in country B, but Australia was the end of the line. So no telex was likely to be sent to ABC from London. Any telex that was actually sent would at most request the prints be forwarded to NZ. Or just possibly to Hong Kong or Singapore. Cycling was a dispatch-room policy. They just didn't ask for items to be returned. I privately believe they looked on the ABC as a convenient storehouse, an operation that was big enough to hold a large quantity of items until some other broadcaster in the region ordered them. It saved on the cost of shipping a new print from London, and perhaps of striking that new print, if the item was already held in Oz. So the last thing they wanted was to have all this material shipped back to London, where they'd have to store it themselves. The introduction of colour in Australia, in '75, probably disrupted a system that had worked fairly well up until then. The odd thing is that anything ever got back to London at all, since Enterprises didn't chase ABC for returns, and the contract didn't even require it. ABC could simply telex London to renew the contract if it wanted to keep airing a programme after the contracted end-date, or could silently dispose of the prints however it saw fit if it didn't want to renew. There was some unwritten agreement about cycling, that all the parties involved understood but we don't! Short of talking to some former ABC staff, we probably won't ever get to the bottom of it.
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Post by Dan Kolb on Jul 20, 2019 17:42:17 GMT
Personally, I'd be crawling around on the floor locating the key episodes like Power ep1. If someone questions, I'd just say "Safety inspection sir. This "EE 1" can is a tipsy-looking safety hazard so I'll have to remove it to another location". Hmm..my car boot looks pretty safe... 45 years ago very few knew what was “key” or even what was missing. Afaik the first published list of stories was in the RT 10th anniversary special in 1973 and it was a few years after that that Sue Malden and Ian Levine got involved. True - no one knew what would be missing. What is key was always key: An Unearthly Child 1, TP4, Power 1, Dalek Invasion Of Earth 6, War Games 10 whether they later turned out missing or not. Episodes where someone joined or left the Tardis or just very good stories like EOTD 7 with the Emperor Dalek might be considered better than average or more important.
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Post by Dan Kolb on Jul 20, 2019 17:55:49 GMT
A request could be telexed to station A in country A to cycle a set of prints to station B in country B, but Australia was the end of the line. I privately believe they looked on the ABC as a convenient storehouse, an operation that was big enough to hold a large quantity of items until some other broadcaster in the region ordered them. As I understand it, from Jon Preddle, Australia wasn't the end of the line but near the beginning with being given first chance at BBC programs since they covered a large chunk of the clearance costs. Also, they apparently had their own set of prints held at a bond store. For awhile I thought BBC Sydney might have been a hub for Australasian sales and that they may have stored some materials.
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
Posts: 536
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Post by Simon Collis on Jul 20, 2019 21:57:03 GMT
As I understand it, from Jon Preddle, Australia wasn't the end of the line but near the beginning with being given first chance at BBC programs since they covered a large chunk of the clearance costs. Also, they apparently had their own set of prints held at a bond store. Cue various assorted hotheads calling every bond store in Australia... I hope Philip Morris has already got there first!
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Post by Ed Brown on Jul 20, 2019 22:42:55 GMT
Oz was the most important customer in the region, because it was the wealthiest. Along with CBC Canada, ABC was one of BBC's biggest overseas customers in terms of sales. Yes, ABC took more programs than anyone save perhaps CBC, but in purely geographical terms it - unlike CBC - was at the far end of the line (you just can't get any further from London!), so that tapes could be shipped to ABC via other customers.
If ABC was the first port of call, for a print, nothing would get saved at ABC, they'd just pass it all on to other broadcasters. But some evidence indicates that items ended up at ABC/NZBC.
We surely need to agree on one vital point: where was the end of the line (for 'Who')? No point looking for missing film prints in a country which is in the middle of the shipping chain that began in London, or, worse, Is at the beginning of the chain.
Why did so many prints get shipped back from ABC in 1975, and why did (say) 'The Lion' end up in NZ, if Oz/NZ were not the end of the line for the Pacific region?
In my opinion, that doesn't matter though.
If my basic assumption is correct, that ABC were servicing such a big geographical area that they were striking duplicate prints, those dups would remain behind in Oz when the master print - the original - was shipped out to NZ or Hong Kong. We would expect to find the dup prints that got left behind, because Hong Kong is geographically tiny, so only needed one print.
We would only expect to find dup prints at ABC or CBC, because no other broadcaster covered such a vast area that it needed them: Star TV in Hong Kong didn't cover a big area, Singapore is similarly not in need of multiple prints, NZ is the same size as the UK so didn't need multiple prints either. But ABC is a special case. It's reasonable to work out where the cycled prints would finish up, but if that wasn't Australia it's still reasonable to expect (dup) prints to exist in Australia.
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Post by Dan Kolb on Jul 21, 2019 3:00:11 GMT
This may have been done before, but putting info from Wiped! ver1 and the 1975 Oz return list together, here's what we have to likely prove two sets existed:
D Marco 1-7 set1 junked (WIPED!) H Reign 1-6 to NZ junked (WIPED! - one set?) P Crusade 1-4 to NZ 2-4 junked (WIPED!), ep1 recovered by collector. Story repeated in Adelaide 4 months later (WIPED! A second set?) or sourced from Singapore. T Galaxy 1-4 junked (WIPED!) T 1975au (returned to BBC) TA Mission 1 not shown, ABC don't have it. no data. U Myth 1,3,4 junked no data ep2 (WIPED!) U 1975au V Masterplan 1-6,8-12 not shown, ABC don't have it. no data. W Massacre 1-4 junked (WIPED!) Y Toymaker 1-3 no records (WIPED!) AA Savages 1-4 no records (WIPED!) CC Smugglers 1,3,4 junked no data ep2 (WIPED!) CC 1975au DD Tenth 1-4 junked (WIPED!) DD 1975au EE Power 1-6 junked (WIPED!) EE 1975au FF Highlanders 1-4 junked (WIPED!) GG Underwater 1-4 1975au - ep2 saved by collector HH Moonbase 1-4 junked (WIPED!) HH 1975au JJ Macra 1-4 junked KK Faceless 1-6 junked (WIPED!) copy of ep1 held by film collector proves a duplicate print existed. KK 1975au LL Evil 1-7 junked LL 1975au NN Snowmen 1-6 junked NN 1975au OO Warriors 1-6 junked OO 1975au RR Fury 1-6 no records SS Wheel 1-6 junked other source says ep2-5 no record (So, at least one copy of ep1 junked, if not all). VV Invasion 1-8 junked VV 1975au YY Pirates 1-6 junked (WIPED!) one section says all junked another says ep4 no record YY 1975au
So, there must have been two sets of most serials, otherwise how could T,U(most of it),CC(most),DD,EE,HH,KK,LL,NN,OO,VV,YY(most or all) have been junked yet also sent on to London? The only way that can happen is if there was a second set or if all the paperwork referenced was wrong. TA and V likely sent back to London in 1960's. At least 1 set of W,FF,JJ junked (was there only 1 set of these stories?) No records of any of Y 1-3, AA or RR at all.
Doesn't this seem to indicate two sets or have I made, as you say in UK, a cock-up of this whole thing?
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Post by Michael Pummell on Jul 21, 2019 8:47:45 GMT
This may have been done before, but putting info from Wiped! ver1 and the 1975 Oz return list together, here's what we have to likely prove two sets existed: D Marco 1-7 set1 junked (WIPED!) D 1-7 to NZ (a second set? ep1&2 to Iran, ep3-7 junked) H Reign 1-6 to NZ junked (WIPED! - one set?) P Crusade 1-4 to NZ 2-4 junked (WIPED!), ep1 recovered by collector. Story repeated in Adelaide 4 months later (WIPED! A second set?) T Galaxy 1-4 junked (WIPED!) T 1975au (returned to BBC) TA Mission 1 not shown, ABC don't have it. no data. U Myth 1,3,4 junked no data ep2 (WIPED!) U 1975au V Masterplan 1-6,8-12 not shown, ABC don't have it. no data. W Massacre 1-4 junked (WIPED!) Y Toymaker 1-3 no records (WIPED!) AA Savages 1-4 no records (WIPED!) CC Smugglers 1,3,4 junked no data ep2 (WIPED!) CC 1975au DD Tenth 1-4 junked (WIPED!) DD 1975au EE Power 1-6 junked (WIPED!) EE 1975au FF Highlanders 1-4 junked (WIPED!) GG Underwater 1-4 1975au - ep2 saved by collector HH Moonbase 1-4 junked (WIPED!) HH 1975au JJ Macra 1-4 junked KK Faceless 1-6 junked (WIPED!) copy of ep1 held by film collector proves a duplicate print existed. KK 1975au LL Evil 1-7 junked LL 1975au NN Snowmen 1-6 junked NN 1975au OO Warriors 1-6 junked OO 1975au RR Fury 1-6 no records SS Wheel 1-6 junked other source says ep2-5 no record (So, at least one copy of ep1 junked, if not all). VV Invasion 1-8 junked VV 1975au YY Pirates 1-6 junked (WIPED!) one section says all junked another says ep4 no record YY 1975au Both sets of Marco Polo junked except ep1&2 from set 2 NZ sent to Iran. So, there must have been two sets of most serials, otherwise how could T,U(most of it),CC(most),DD,EE,HH,KK,LL,NN,OO,VV,YY(most or all) have been junked yet also sent on to London? TA and V likely sent back to London in 1960's. At least 1 set of W,FF,JJ junked (was there only 1 set of this story?) No records of any of Y 1-3, AA or RR at all. Doesn't this seem to indicate two sets or have I made, as you say in UK, a cock-up of this whole thing? Umm, I think there was only one set of prints for Marco Polo and it certainly didn’t go to NZ and neither did The Crusades. Your list is a bit off kilter though as you’ve listed a lot of stories (such as The Faceless Ones) being junked when they were returned in the June 1975 batch.
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Post by Dan Kolb on Jul 21, 2019 20:03:08 GMT
Umm, I think there was only one set of prints for Marco Polo and it certainly didn’t go to NZ and neither did The Crusades. Your list is a bit off kilter though as you’ve listed a lot of stories (such as The Faceless Ones) being junked when they were returned in the June 1975 batch. My apologies about Marco. It was Reign that went to NZBC. It was every story Reign Of Terror to The Crusade that was sent to New Zealand on 19th September 1967. (WIPED! pg 326). WIPED! pg 381. The Crusade (What Happened To The Film Prints?) "Prints of all 4 episodes sent to NZBC in New Zealand September 1967. The Story was repeated in Adelaide in February 1968, which suggests that there was more than one set of prints. ABC confirm they no longer have the episodes". BroaDWcast says the Crusade NZ print could have come from Singapore, so between these sources, it's still unclear. Two fates was my point. Using an example you mentioned. WIPED! pg 397. The Faceless Ones (What Happened To The Film Prints?) "ABC have records of destroying all 6 episodes...". Yet these are on the 1975 return list. The only way that can happen is if there was a second set or if all the paperwork referenced was wrong. I have corrected the original list.
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jul 22, 2019 13:36:06 GMT
Once an item was a couple of years past its contacted date, it was pretty clear the ABC was not going to renew the contract so some thought would then be given to clearing it off the shelf to free-up space. At that point, it would be given away to a local film club or collector, or to a film enthusiast on the station's staff. Otherwise it might get binned. I asked about disposal of old programmes when I was working for the ABC, and here is what I was told. If the BBC stipulated "Return Or Destroy" when supplying film copies, that is what would happen. The ABC had a good relationship with the BBC, including first refusal for new programmes, and the ABC would never risk all this by breaking a contractual agreement with them. But I did see one disc of "My Word" in circulation nearly twenty years after it should have been dumped. There's always going to be something that slips through the net, and the possibility of local duplicate copies complicates the picture.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jul 22, 2019 21:04:58 GMT
I asked about disposal of old programmes when I was working for the ABC, and here is what I was told. If the BBC stipulated "Return Or Destroy" when supplying film copies, that is what would happen. I've never bought into this "return or destroy" idea. Why would the BBC impose that on a buyer as a term and condition, when the bicycling of prints to save costs was the desired method? I've seen samples of sales contracts / invoices issued to the NZBC and nowhere does it even mention what was to happen to the prints after use. My take is that the stations were expected to hold onto them until issued with instructions, so any "return of destroy" request would come later on, rather at the start. The BBC wouldn't sell to Country A, with the "destroy or return" conditions in place up front, because it would be looking at moving the prints to Country B, rather than waiting to hear back from Country A to find out what they had done with the films before knowing whether or not they'd need to strike a second set - and at great expense; the prints weren't cheap. "We've sold it to Country B, can we have the films back please" / "Oh, we've destroyed them because that was in the terms of the sale contract". The BBC strikes another set and sends it to Country B. Later, they sell to Country C. They ring Country B "Oh, we've destroyed the prints because it said to do so". The BBC strikes another set ... etc. It would be only once the sales rights had expired on a programme that "return or destroy" orders would be issued, and the last few countries to buy would be notified to do so.
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Post by Robert Lia on Jul 23, 2019 20:21:42 GMT
Like Nigeria which fortunately failed to completely comply with the order
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Post by Sue Butcher on Jul 25, 2019 1:58:27 GMT
I think the My Word disc had something to the effect of "destroy after expiry of broadcast rights" on the sleeve, but it's so long ago now I can't remember the details. I do remember thinking that the rights had obviously expired and the ABC Perth were being a bit naughty broadcasting it. They sometimes filled slots in regional radio broadcasts with really old BBC shows, but these weren't heard in the Perth area.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jul 27, 2019 1:14:41 GMT
I think the My Word disc had something to the effect of "destroy after expiry of broadcast rights" on the sleeve, but it's so long ago now I can't remember the details. I do remember thinking that the rights had obviously expired and the ABC Perth were being a bit naughty broadcasting it. They sometimes filled slots in regional radio broadcasts with really old BBC shows, but these weren't heard in the Perth area. That instruction may have been put on the label internally by the ABC rather than the BBC.
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