RWels
Member
Posts: 2,857
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Post by RWels on Jan 9, 2018 23:06:28 GMT
So what is Planet Mondas saying about the topic unofficially? What, about Mr. Morris? Simply put, they have more faith in Kaleidoscope than Mr. Morris, given the disagreement between the two. Mostly that just proves (again!) that "what people say" is not necessarily a source of wisdom. Apples and oranges? Also, now that seems a bit ungrateful to Morris, and besides, it's not a contest. (I know that I just said that Morris was wrong to tweet about a very old letter... and I still say so... but I'm just trying to see some good in all of the above.) The two full stories that might return this year (based off of the information of prints sent to Nigeria) The Wheel in Space (most likely) and The Abominable Snowmen (less likely). Just to get my foot in the door on that topic. Hoping for those (9 of them still lost) actually makes some sense!
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Jan 9, 2018 23:36:53 GMT
The two full stories that might return this year (based off of the information of prints sent to Nigeria) The Wheel in Space (most likely) and The Abominable Snowmen (less likely). Just to get my foot in the door on that topic. I can't argue much with that; on my Missing Episode Tracker they both come within the top three serials most likely to be recovered. Definitely 'The Wheel in Space' tops the list. And who knows, it's the 50th anniversary of that serial this year...
As for orphan episodes, 'The Web of Fear' #3 is top of the list. It's difficult to say what else there might be, as it very much depended on what was there to "borrow" in the first place. 'The Daleks' Master Plan' #4 was listed in the BBC-wide audit of 1976, but is currently missing. One would hope that this made it out and is held in a private collection somewhere, just like the other episodes that currently exist from this serial. Anything that was spliced for use in other programmes such as Blue Peter would likely have been destroyed after use, and so 'The Tenth Planet' #4 is actually one of the least likely episodes to be returned in my opinion (that and the fact that only three countries aired the serial).
One serial that I have noted for a partial recovery is 'The Space Pirates' as a full set of prints still existed and aired in Zambia in 1976, two years after BBC Enterprises withdrew the films from sale (obviously the broadcast rights still applied). Given the date, it seems likely that these episodes would have been returned and then junked alongside 'Galaxy 4' later in 1976, the latter of which was confirmed to have been destroyed that year. Considering we had a recovery of 'Galaxy 4' #3 in 2011, it does suggest that episodes from this batch of junking did survive and make their way into private hands. 'The Space Pirates' #2 exists because the master was already a film print and at no point was this considered to be a missing episode - it was stored in the Film Library, and consequently recorded in the BBC-wide audit of 1976 and the Film Library audit of 1977. Considering we haven't had any recoveries from Zambia, the odds are that it probably didn't stay there after broadcast.
We're very fortunate to have as many as we do, but it must be said that overseas sales have contributed comparatively little to the missing episodes recovery overall and that future prospects as a result are very limited indeed.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 9, 2018 23:45:25 GMT
Well, nevertheless, posting a 30 year old letter as "evidence" is a somewhat disappointing move as well. I don't know why Morris - who must after all be a practical man - doesn't simply ignore Mr Perry if he doesn't want to deal with him. Don't mistake that for defending Chris - I am simply not qualified to judge (for example I know he can make promises easily, but I myself have not found him to be handing out bootlegs just like that - ha, if only) and that's not what this board is here for anyway. For the average bystander this just seems like nasty infighting and dirty laundry, when Kal seems to be doing some good work too, with results, screenings for charity, and getting publicity, and all that. Or at least, that's how it all appears on the surface to me. You know, I completely agree. But first it's worth pointing out that Jan published the letter himself in a Facebook thread, carefully redacting anything that could identify Chris. The trouble is, the typeface that Chris used is very distinctive, as is the aggressive style of writing. He wrote a similar letter to Ian Levine around the same time. Various people recognised this as the work of Perry and obviously there have been no denials. I don't think Phil was aware of the age of the letter when he posted it. But I've been thinking about what I would have done in the same situation. If I was a Doctor and a fellow Doctor was endangering the health of patients and I could do something about it, I would. At the BBC, I have had editorial policy training, which means that I do my best to ensure impartiality in the work that I do that is broadcast, regardless of the channel that it's broadcast on. I work in very senior roles in broadcast organisations, so if I spot something in the work of others that could bring my channel or programme into disrepute, I'll do something about it. This could be regarded as a similar situation. Paul
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Post by Vaughan Stanger on Jan 10, 2018 12:18:56 GMT
I sometimes find myself wishing that there was a society of missing episode finders, whose membership (organisations and individuals) signed up to, and abided by, an agreed code of conduct. Then I consider how difficult it would be to run such a society... and understand why it doesn't exist.
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Post by John Green on Jan 10, 2018 16:22:44 GMT
I sometimes find myself wishing that there was a society of missing episode finders, whose membership (organisations and individuals) signed up to, and abided by, an agreed code of conduct. Then I consider how difficult it would be to run such a society... and understand why it doesn't exist. I almost wish it was more like the law on treasure trove, or at least the bit about: "When treasure has vested in the Crown and is to be transferred to a museum, the Secretary of State is required to determine whether a reward should be paid by the museum before the transfer[64] to the finder or any other person involved in the finding of the treasure, the occupier of the land at the time of the find, or any person who had an interest in the land at the time of the find or has had such an interest at any time since then.[65] If the Secretary of State determines that a reward should be paid, he or she must also determine the market value of the treasure (assisted by the Treasure Valuation Committee),[66] the amount of the reward (which cannot exceed the market value), to whom the reward should be paid and, if more than one person should be paid, how much each person should receive." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_troveRewards are given for finding a Saxon pin and not keeping the find a secret. Why not do the same for lost telly? It seems obvious that loadsa people have material in their hands. What use,really is the principle "We mustn't reward people because they'll expect a reward" if shows are otherwise lost?
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Post by Vaughan Stanger on Jan 10, 2018 17:09:34 GMT
I sometimes find myself wishing that there was a society of missing episode finders, whose membership (organisations and individuals) signed up to, and abided by, an agreed code of conduct. Then I consider how difficult it would be to run such a society... and understand why it doesn't exist. I almost wish it was more like the law on treasure trove, or at least the bit about: "When treasure has vested in the Crown and is to be transferred to a museum, the Secretary of State is required to determine whether a reward should be paid by the museum before the transfer[64] to the finder or any other person involved in the finding of the treasure, the occupier of the land at the time of the find, or any person who had an interest in the land at the time of the find or has had such an interest at any time since then.[65] If the Secretary of State determines that a reward should be paid, he or she must also determine the market value of the treasure (assisted by the Treasure Valuation Committee),[66] the amount of the reward (which cannot exceed the market value), to whom the reward should be paid and, if more than one person should be paid, how much each person should receive." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_troveRewards are given for finding a Saxon pin and not keeping the find a secret. Who not do the same for lost telly? It seems obvious that loadsa people have material in their hands. What use,really is the principle "We mustn't reward people because they'll expect a reward" if shows are otherwise lost? Neat.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Jan 11, 2018 21:11:53 GMT
I don't post here much but feel i need to add to this thread now.
It so sad to hear all this slagging off of Perry and kalidescope.
At the end of the day they are finding and announcing things which is more than Phil Morris and certain other individuals are doing at the moment.
Instead of all this Perry bashing Paul's efforts would be better spent in trying to perswade a certain Phillip Morris to return more missing episodes.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 11, 2018 21:15:02 GMT
I don't post here much but feel i need to add to this thread now. It so sad to hear all this slagging off of Perry and kalidescope. At the end of the day they are finding and announcing things which is more than Phil Morris and certain other individuals are doing at the moment. Instead of all this Perry bashing Paul's efforts would be better spent in trying to perswade a certain Phillip Morris to return more missing episodes. Is there any proof that PM has any - in particular - missing Dr Who that he hasn’t returned?
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,857
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Post by RWels on Jan 11, 2018 23:23:18 GMT
Instead of all this Perry bashing Paul's efforts would be better spent in trying to perswade a certain Phillip Morris to return more missing episodes. Well, I'm not sure it is quite THAT easy. All these people have made huge contributions. Re Morris specifically I'm reminded a bit of that old "Why god never received a PhD" joke. "It may be true that he created the world, but what has he done since then?" Or in this case, So he went to Nigeria himself at his own personal risk and came back with 9 lost episodes, but what has he done since?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 11, 2018 23:45:40 GMT
I don't post here much but feel i need to add to this thread now. It so sad to hear all this slagging off of Perry and kalidescope. At the end of the day they are finding and announcing things which is more than Phil Morris and certain other individuals are doing at the moment. Instead of all this Perry bashing Paul's efforts would be better spent in trying to perswade a certain Phillip Morris to return more missing episodes. Steve, I understand your frustration. It's never nice when people that you thought were doing things the right way turn out to be doing the opposite. I want to make it clear that I am not talking about Kaleidoscope the organisation. As for Philip Morris, well he has a business to run and how he runs his business is... his business. It's not mine and it's not yours. What I do know is that he found and returned a lot of missing Doctor Who and he's keen to find other examples of lost TV. I hope that he does and I'll help him in that effort. I also hope that Kaleidoscope continue to be successful, although if you look carefully the bulk of their announcements are the work of others, merely reported by Kaleidoscope. But regardless, work continues in the background to track down lost programme material. How you do that and how you deal with collectors and others though is how you are measured. My aim is to do the best I can and treat the people I come into contact with, with respect. Not everyone searching and recovering lost television shares those values and I find that sad. Regards, Paul
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Post by markhumphries on Jan 22, 2018 19:46:22 GMT
I don't post here much but feel i need to add to this thread now. It so sad to hear all this slagging off of Perry and kalidescope. At the end of the day they are finding and announcing things which is more than Phil Morris and certain other individuals are doing at the moment. Instead of all this Perry bashing Paul's efforts would be better spent in trying to perswade a certain Phillip Morris to return more missing episodes. Steve, I understand your frustration. It's never nice when people that you thought were doing things the right way turn out to be doing the opposite. I want to make it clear that I am not talking about Kaleidoscope the organisation. As for Philip Morris, well he has a business to run and how he runs his business is... his business. It's not mine and it's not yours. What I do know is that he found and returned a lot of missing Doctor Who and he's keen to find other examples of lost TV. I hope that he does and I'll help him in that effort. I also hope that Kaleidoscope continue to be successful, although if you look carefully the bulk of their announcements are the work of others, merely reported by Kaleidoscope. But regardless, work continues in the background to track down lost programme material. How you do that and how you deal with collectors and others though is how you are measured. My aim is to do the best I can and treat the people I come into contact with, with respect. Not everyone searching and recovering lost television shares those values and I find that sad. Regards, Paul Quick question Paul if I may. Since the latest stick used to beat Phillip with is 'if Chris found a WHO episode he would give it back right away'. Do you believe if Chris came into possession of a missing WHO episode, he would give it back right away or do you think it best if any missing WHO material found is kept out of the hands of Chris?
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,857
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Post by RWels on Jan 22, 2018 22:54:27 GMT
OK the question is not addressed to me but why would DW material be any different from other stuff? Isn't it nonsense anyway to blame Morris, or anyone else for that matter, for NOT coming up with any more? Should we take complaints somewhere on the internet like that serious at all? (See my earlier remark on why god never received a PhD...)
Also I don't see this as a situation likely to happen. I.e. someone else having to choose to whom to return his missing Doctor Who episodes. If Chris / Kal finds one, then it's up to them, but I would be surprised if they didn't return it. Kal's never been accused of keeping back stuff (refusing to hand it over to its owners); and especially in this case, wow, that would really antagonize pretty much everyone...
Of course, if you through some miracle have the choice what to do, you could also return them to the BBC directly, because that would be the route that they (meaning either kal or the episodes themselves) would take anyway.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 28, 2018 11:10:50 GMT
Quick question Paul if I may. Since the latest stick used to beat Phillip with is 'if Chris found a WHO episode he would give it back right away'. Do you believe if Chris came into possession of a missing WHO episode, he would give it back right away or do you think it best if any missing WHO material found is kept out of the hands of Chris? Chris Perry is as transparent as a pane of glass. He has gone to great efforts to disguise his interest in Doctor Who. But the Chris I recall from the 1980's talked about finding Doctor Who all the time and if you recall, he was the first to be contacted by 'Roger K. Barratt' in the Tenth Planet 4 hoax, details of which he passed on to me. Chris is the first person to publicly put a price on an episode of 'Doctor Who' from a collector. It was £20k, and his price for one has since risen. I don't think I need to point out the stupidity of such an action. But why would he do that? It seems obvious to me; he wants to be the go to person for a collector who turns up a Doctor Who film and a minimum of £20k is a big carrot to dangle. I am sure that Chris would do the right thing if he was offered a DW ep. But ultimately no DW film is worth that kind of money other than to a purist collector who would like the cuedos of returning one to the BBC (hello Chris!). It's worth pointing out that the BBC have never paid for the return of any film that they currently hold (apart from transport costs, like the Lionheart archive) and all the film collectors who have returned Doctor Who films to the BBC did not benefit financially from dealing with the archive. That is how it should be, that is the context in which the return of films should be discussed. Paul
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jan 28, 2018 11:19:50 GMT
Of course, if you through some miracle have the choice what to do, you could also return them to the BBC directly, because that would be the route that they (meaning either kal or the episodes themselves) would take anyway. It's the route I would always recommend. Dealing with other organisations like The Restoration Team or Kaleidoscope introduces a mostly unnecessary stage into the return, at least when dealing with BBC content. The difficulty arises when a film collector doesn't want to publicly admit to having material for fear of being clobbered by the BBC's lawyers, or does want a financial return. I have had many conversations with collectors who still hold the fear that their films will be confiscated and they'll be up before the beak. Some I have been able to talk round, others I have arranged for them to either loan their material or bring it in for transfer on a Sunday when nobody is about. They depart anonymously with their film. Everyone is happy. On other occasions I've just acquired the film myself and it goes back with no fanfare. Paul
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Post by andyc on Jan 28, 2018 11:45:35 GMT
Of course, if you through some miracle have the choice what to do, you could also return them to the BBC directly, because that would be the route that they (meaning either kal or the episodes themselves) would take anyway. It's the route I would always recommend. Dealing with other organisations like The Restoration Team or Kaleidoscope introduces a mostly unnecessary stage into the return, at least when dealing with BBC content. The difficulty arises when a film collector doesn't want to publicly admit to having material for fear of being clobbered by the BBC's lawyers, or does want a financial return. I have had many conversations with collectors who still hold the fear that their films will be confiscated and they'll be up before the beak. Some I have been able to talk round, others I have arranged for them to either loan their material or bring it in for transfer on a Sunday when nobody is about. They depart anonymously with their film. Everyone is happy. On other occasions I've just acquired the film myself and it goes back with no fanfare. Paul Mischievous question alert:- So does this mean there are other collectors who don't match any of those criteria? I.E collectors who you are pretty sure have some missing material but you haven't been able to talk round for a meeting/loan/transfer at all? Therefore they still hold the only known copy in their private collection? And I don't just mean Doctor Who.......
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