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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 6, 2019 16:43:43 GMT
DISCOVERY/RECOVERY 452 - Censor Clips – various series and episodes, extracts only. Recovered from the National Archives of Australia (NAA), the second batch of sequences cut from BBC and ITV film prints in the 1960s/1970s. A mixture of brief and longer clips of material deemed unsuitable for Australian audiences. Benbow Was His Name tx: 7.5.1964 BBC Champion House – The Second Freedom tx: 11.6.1967 BBC Champion House – Before a Fall tx: 24.9.1967 BBC Champion House – Don’t Let Your Right Hand tx: 2.5.1968 BBC Champion House – The Golden Fleece tx: 23.5.1968 BBC Comedy Playhouse – Thankyou Sir, Thankyou Madam tx: 31.5.1968 BBC The Likely Lads – Anchors Aweigh tx: 9.7.1966 BBC Dusty - Episode 5 tx: 15.9.1966 BBC On The Margin – Episode 5 tx: 7.12.1966 BBC Till Death Us Do Part – Sex Before Marriage tx: 2.1.1967 BBC World of the Beachcomber – Episode 13 tx: 22.4.1968 BBC Z Cars – Not a Bad Lad Really tx: 14.4.1969 BBC Z Cars – Double Game tx: 9.6.1969 BBC Playhouse – The Kindness of Mrs Radcliffe 23.9.1968 Thames Intrigue tx: 1966 ABC Premiere – Night of the Talavera tx: 9.10.1968 Thames The Queen St Gang – Bringing Home the Bacon 22.8.1968 Rediffusion The Rat Catchers – The Umbrella tx: 16.3.1966 Rediffusion The Rat Catchers – Rendezvous Vienna tx : 8.12.1966 Rediffusion The Rat Catchers – Heel of Achilles tx: 23.2.1967 Rediffusion The Sex Game – Return Match tx: 20.11.1968 Thames 16mm telerecordings transferred to 4k HD file. Thanks to Alan at Roobarb for passing the news on. It's worth pointing out that all of this content was actually located by Damian Shanahan in his trawl of all the censor material at the National Archives of Australia. We all know about the Doctor Who censor clips that he found; these censor cuts are all part of the same series, so not really a discovery at all. Paul
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Post by Ant Harvison - WIPED NEWS on Feb 6, 2019 17:07:32 GMT
Paul, though Damian did indeed locate the censor clips back in the 1990s, I believe Kal were the ones who finally organised for their repatriation to the UK, and therefore deserve credit for this, or am I wrong?
Though it is right to note the background to recoveries, I do not understand why you are so consistently negative towards Kaleidoscope. Surely they are doing excellent work in the field, as the many lost shows they have brought back for all to enjoy amply attests to?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 6, 2019 18:22:35 GMT
Paul, though Damian did indeed locate the censor clips back in the 1990s, I believe Kal were the ones who finally organised for their repatriation to the UK, and therefore deserve credit for this, or am I wrong? Though it is right to note the background to recoveries, I do not understand why you are so consistently negative towards Kaleidoscope. Surely they are doing excellent work in the field, as the many lost shows they have brought back for all to enjoy amply attests to? Hi Ant, As you rightly point out, Damian did indeed discover the censor clips back in the 1990's. The post above which mentions these calls it a "Discovery/Recovery" and I was merely correcting that error so that the person who did do the actual discovering gets a nod. Anyone can get copies of something from an official archive (if they have ensured that they have the relevant permissions) and the BBC could have arranged to do this at any time since Damian did his work, if they felt the material worth recovering. As for your comments about me being negative towards Kaleidoscope, this is an extremely unfortunate comment for you to make. I have made it quite clear that I do not like Chris Perry who heads Kal. I fully support the aims of Kaleidoscope and many of my friends are part of Kaleidoscope. However, knowing what I do (and having heard the horror stories) I can't possibly support that organisation whilst he is involved in it. I also feel that it's my duty as a moderator of this forum to ensure that the users of it are fully informed about what is an actual discovery. This isn't. Whether it also constitutes a "Recovery" is up to the reader, but getting hold of a copy from an official national archive of a foreign country and adding it to a private archive in another country doesn't really constitute a recovery to me. It looks more like someones personal collection is getting bigger. Paul
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Post by John Wall on Feb 6, 2019 19:18:02 GMT
Thank you, Paul, for your honesty.
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Post by Michael Pummell on Feb 7, 2019 7:58:24 GMT
Paul, though Damian did indeed locate the censor clips back in the 1990s, I believe Kal were the ones who finally organised for their repatriation to the UK, and therefore deserve credit for this, or am I wrong? Though it is right to note the background to recoveries, I do not understand why you are so consistently negative towards Kaleidoscope. Surely they are doing excellent work in the field, as the many lost shows they have brought back for all to enjoy amply attests to? Hi Ant, As you rightly point out, Damian did indeed discover the censor clips back in the 1990's. The post above which mentions these calls it a "Discovery/Recovery" and I was merely correcting that error so that the person who did do the actual discovering gets a nod. Anyone can get copies of something from an official archive (if they have ensured that they have the relevant permissions) and the BBC could have arranged to do this at any time since Damian did his work, if they felt the material worth recovering. As for your comments about me being negative towards Kaleidoscope, this is an extremely unfortunate comment for you to make. I have made it quite clear that I do not like Chris Perry who heads Kal. I fully support the aims of Kaleidoscope and many of my friends are part of Kaleidoscope. However, knowing what I do (and having heard the horror stories) I can't possibly support that organisation whilst he is involved in it. I also feel that it's my duty as a moderator of this forum to ensure that the users of it are fully informed about what is an actual discovery. This isn't. Whether it also constitutes a "Recovery" is up to the reader, but getting hold of a copy from an official national archive of a foreign country and adding it to a private archive in another country doesn't really constitute a recovery to me. It looks more like someones personal collection is getting bigger. Paul I think there’s more credit due here. No doubt Damian did originally discover these clips, but they remained unlisted and inaccessible to most researchers for the next 21 years. National Archives are not greatly resourced and their legislation is so time consuming to enact its a wonder anything gets done. Kaleidoscope do not have the original clips, merely copies, in the same way as the BBC only have copies of the Doctor Who censor clips. Personally I feel that Kaleidoscope should be thanked for helping to get the NAA to finally list the contents of the series so anyone can see what clips exist by searching the NAA’s website. They, as well as others, have all played their part. It only took 21 years, but they got there in the end. Now what happened to all those censored Troubleshooters clips?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 7, 2019 13:35:16 GMT
I think there’s more credit due here. No doubt Damian did originally discover these clips, but they remained unlisted and inaccessible to most researchers for the next 21 years. National Archives are not greatly resourced and their legislation is so time consuming to enact its a wonder anything gets done. Kaleidoscope do not have the original clips, merely copies, in the same way as the BBC only have copies of the Doctor Who censor clips. Personally I feel that Kaleidoscope should be thanked for helping to get the NAA to finally list the contents of the series so anyone can see what clips exist by searching the NAA’s website. They, as well as others, have all played their part. It only took 21 years, but they got there in the end. Now what happened to all those censored Troubleshooters clips? That's not entirely true Michael. The BBC did have a great many more clips, not just DW. They didn't get everything from the NAA and they certainly didn't get hold of any ITV content. Paul
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Post by Ant Harvison - WIPED NEWS on Feb 7, 2019 15:03:39 GMT
Paul, I appreciate your answer, and for raising your concerns regards Kaleidoscope. I think, though, that in the absence of a proactive drive by the official BBC/ITV archives, BFI etc., they are the next best thing - recovering material that would otherwise be left on the shelves, or disposed of. If I recall correctly, Damian lamented that some earlier DW censor clips (including Marco Polo) had been destroyed before he'd had a chance to salvage them for the BBC.
As you say yourself, the official archives are picky, whereas Kaleidoscope will take any and all material in a bid to preseve it, and they do, I believe, make it fully accessible for commercial use (by Network etc.) if those companies wish to take advantage of their holdings.
Best,
Ant
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 7, 2019 17:09:59 GMT
I think, though, that in the absence of a proactive drive by the official BBC/ITV archives, BFI etc., they are the next best thing - recovering material that would otherwise be left on the shelves, or disposed of. As I have said many times, I agree with the aims of Kaleidoscope. However, they do not have a monopoly in tracking down lost TV material and I think that some people in that organisation think they do. Paul
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Post by Michael Pummell on Feb 7, 2019 19:47:05 GMT
I think there’s more credit due here. No doubt Damian did originally discover these clips, but they remained unlisted and inaccessible to most researchers for the next 21 years. National Archives are not greatly resourced and their legislation is so time consuming to enact its a wonder anything gets done. Kaleidoscope do not have the original clips, merely copies, in the same way as the BBC only have copies of the Doctor Who censor clips. Personally I feel that Kaleidoscope should be thanked for helping to get the NAA to finally list the contents of the series so anyone can see what clips exist by searching the NAA’s website. They, as well as others, have all played their part. It only took 21 years, but they got there in the end. Now what happened to all those censored Troubleshooters clips? That's not entirely true Michael. The BBC did have a great many more clips, not just DW. They didn't get everything from the NAA and they certainly didn't get hold of any ITV content. Paul Sorry Paul, it was my dodgy expression. What I intended to say was that the BBC and Kaleidoscope only have copies. The originals still reside with NAA. The censor clip listings are a fascinating snapshot of the level of TV censorship in Australia prior to 1971.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 7, 2019 21:56:04 GMT
Sorry Paul, it was my dodgy expression. What I intended to say was that the BBC and Kaleidoscope only have copies. The originals still reside with NAA. The censor clip listings are a fascinating snapshot of the level of TV censorship in Australia prior to 1971. Yes, I know this. I have been listening to Damian Shanahan regarding the subject since 1996. Various non Doctor Who projects I have worked on over the years have utilised the information and the actual clips. I don't think that it's particularly important for these clips to be online or even that the references are online. Anyone wishing to research television and indeed film censorship in Australia could have done exactly what Damian did when all there was to work with was the paperwork. People have become lazy. They think that looking online will give them the answers to everything. All it does is make it easier to find a limited amount of information, what is online, and removes the ability to make connections with the material that isn't. The fact that the references to the clips are online doesn't offer you any more insight into why the censorship board made its decisions, how they operated, who they were etc... To find that information out you will physically have to visit and look at the paperwork that's there and do some actual research. In the meantime, those with the clips can drool over a collection of shootings, knifings and sexist behaviour without understanding any of the context. Regards, Paul
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Post by Jim Exley on Feb 7, 2019 22:18:35 GMT
That's a very valid point which can possibly be extended to how we view or listen to old broadcast material in general - I've found my appreciation of many such things has been improved by gaining an understanding of the cultural context. For example you can enjoy Quatermass and the Pit without knowledge of the Birmingham race riots, but the latter can give you some context as to what Kneale was about with it.
The only thing I've really dug into in any detail censorship-wise is the Goon Show, but even with that there seems a change of pattern to how the Transcription Services edited the shows in the fifties (where generally it was the bawdy jokes that went) and the sixties (where they seemed to be more sensitive to cultural offence) so I suppose you can see evidence of a societal shift there.
It may be a sweeping generalisation but it seems to me that BBC Radio self-censored for overseas sale whilst censorship of TV was left to the countries that purchased.
Could whiffle on at length on this, but I don't feel inclined to bore you all! Cheers Jim
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,863
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Post by RWels on Feb 7, 2019 22:42:40 GMT
That's a very valid point which can possibly be extended to how we view or listen to old broadcast material in general - I've found my appreciation of many such things has been improved by gaining an understanding of the cultural context. For example you can enjoy Quatermass and the Pit without knowledge of the Birmingham race riots, but the latter can give you some context as to what Kneale was about with it. The only thing I've really dug into in any detail censorship-wise is the Goon Show, but even with that there seems a change of pattern to how the Transcription Services edited the shows in the fifties (where generally it was the bawdy jokes that went) and the sixties (where they seemed to be more sensitive to cultural offence) so I suppose you can see evidence of a societal shift there. It may be a sweeping generalisation but it seems to me that BBC Radio self-censored for overseas sale whilst censorship of TV was left to the countries that purchased. Could whiffle on at length on this, but I don't feel inclined to bore you all! Cheers Jim Speaking in general, Europe is less keen on violence but has no problems with sex; the US is exactly the other way round. I think from Marty Feldman's show it was anything to do with religion that got cut in Australia. Sadly those bits don't seem to have survived there.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Feb 7, 2019 22:52:34 GMT
That's a very valid point which can possibly be extended to how we view or listen to old broadcast material in general - I've found my appreciation of many such things has been improved by gaining an understanding of the cultural context. For example you can enjoy Quatermass and the Pit without knowledge of the Birmingham race riots, but the latter can give you some context as to what Kneale was about with it. The only thing I've really dug into in any detail censorship-wise is the Goon Show, but even with that there seems a change of pattern to how the Transcription Services edited the shows in the fifties (where generally it was the bawdy jokes that went) and the sixties (where they seemed to be more sensitive to cultural offence) so I suppose you can see evidence of a societal shift there. It may be a sweeping generalisation but it seems to me that BBC Radio self-censored for overseas sale whilst censorship of TV was left to the countries that purchased. Could whiffle on at length on this, but I don't feel inclined to bore you all! Cheers Jim I have enjoyed your brief whiffle...
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Post by John Wall on Feb 7, 2019 23:16:32 GMT
There’s material here that would make a good DVD extra imho. There’s the ability to show extracts, cuts, etc with someone appropriate to explain the context. I recall that foreign cuts in War Machined were restored from clips shown on Blue Peter. I’m old enough to remember the Black and White Minstrels and Mind Your Language - both of which were peak time, very popular, shows - but who’d show either nowadays?
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Post by Stephen Byers on Feb 8, 2019 0:12:37 GMT
Hmm - 16mm telerecordings transferred to 4k HD file - is a tad small.
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