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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 2, 2016 2:14:32 GMT
I watched that drama "A Journey Through Space And Time" about the creation of Doctor Who and its early years, via Youtube. I noted that they recorded the first episode and then it was viewed by BBC execs who rejected it and ordered the pilot to be re-shot, with the Doctor being played in a much less aggressive and scary manner.
Is this true? And if it is, do both versions of that episode still exist?
I thought the cast in that drama were great by the way, has the BBC considered remaking all the lost Hartnell shows with these actors playing the cast?
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Post by tombeveridge on Jan 2, 2016 2:34:55 GMT
It has been released. ISTR it first appeared on a video release, but you can get it with the Unearthly Child/Daleks DVD. Hartnell's playing of the Doctor is adjusted markedly (showing what a skilled actor he was!) and, really, every change made was an improvement over the pilot. They had trouble with the TARDIS doors, for instance, and the script was rather wooden at some pints. However,it's a fascinating glimpse of the creative process.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 2, 2016 2:55:29 GMT
Thanks Tom. It's interesting how it was retained all those years when it was not intended for broadcast, while other more important shows (ie ones they could make sales from) were wiped.
I think Hartnell was a great actor, The Way Ahead is one of the best WWII films out there in my opinion.
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Post by tombeveridge on Jan 2, 2016 3:31:18 GMT
I agree with everything you say. (And thanks for your sterling work on Dad's Army!) You do raise an interesting point. Why, if tape was so valuable back then, did a rejected pilot survive? And a question to all the forum, which SURVIVING episode would you sacrifice to have permitted the survival of the pilot on tape that could have been reused? (Let's limit this to surviving Hartnells.) Isn't that a tough question (almost like asking which of your children you want to eat!) Or is the pilot worth less than any surviving Hartnell?
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Post by Tony Ingram on Jan 2, 2016 8:19:07 GMT
I watched that drama "A Journey Through Space And Time" about the creation of Doctor Who and its early years, via Youtube. I noted that they recorded the first episode and then it was viewed by BBC execs who rejected it and ordered the pilot to be re-shot, with the Doctor being played in a much less aggressive and scary manner. Is this true? And if it is, do both versions of that episode still exist? I thought the cast in that drama were great by the way, has the BBC considered remaking all the lost Hartnell shows with these actors playing the cast? The pilot was originally released on VHS in 1991 on Doctor Who: The Hartnell Years (along with the only then known to be surviving episodes of The Crusade and The Celestial Toymaker) and later re-released on DVD. Personally, much as I liked the docudrama, I would be totally against remaking any old episodes with new actors. I'd consider it disrespectful to the originals-William Hartnell was the first Doctor, nobody else. I didn't like it when the recast his part in The Five Doctors in 1983, either.
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Post by PAUL COTTON on Jan 2, 2016 9:41:19 GMT
Its worth pointing out that the surviving pilot is a film print, not a video tape. A film copy was easier to view.
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RWels
Member
Posts: 2,854
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Post by RWels on Jan 2, 2016 10:27:49 GMT
I watched that drama "A Journey Through Space And Time" about the creation of Doctor Who and its early years, via Youtube. I noted that they recorded the first episode and then it was viewed by BBC execs who rejected it and ordered the pilot to be re-shot, with the Doctor being played in a much less aggressive and scary manner. Is this true? And if it is, do both versions of that episode still exist? I thought the cast in that drama were great by the way, has the BBC considered remaking all the lost Hartnell shows with these actors playing the cast? From what I hear, it was a bit of a surprise when it was found. Its survival is one of those random things. It's on the DVD. Remaking the episodes would mean a choice. Do you also improve them? Or do you simply re-enact the exact same thing? There was one weak episode without the Doctor when Hartnell had hurt himself during the second Dalek story, it'd feel very silly to repeat problems and imperfections like that for no real reason. Or suppose if the Space Museum was missing, should that really be made again...?
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Post by Richard Marple on Jan 2, 2016 13:02:01 GMT
IIRC the reel the pilot was considered lost until about 1981, when I assume there was some kind of audit / recataloguing of the archive.
I know some odd episodes of things have been remade, like The Grove Family & Quatermass.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Jan 2, 2016 13:02:58 GMT
I watched that drama "A Journey Through Space And Time" about the creation of Doctor Who and its early years, via Youtube. I noted that they recorded the first episode and then it was viewed by BBC execs who rejected it and ordered the pilot to be re-shot, with the Doctor being played in a much less aggressive and scary manner. Is this true? And if it is, do both versions of that episode still exist? I thought the cast in that drama were great by the way, has the BBC considered remaking all the lost Hartnell shows with these actors playing the cast? From what I hear, it was a bit of a surprise when it was found. Its survival is one of those random things. It's on the DVD. Remaking the episodes would mean a choice. Do you also improve them? Or do you simply re-enact the exact same thing? There was one weak episode without the Doctor when Hartnell had hurt himself during the second Dalek story, it'd feel very silly to repeat problems and imperfections like that for no real reason. Or suppose if the Space Museum was missing, should that really be made again...? Most of fandom would never accept remakes as being in canon, any more than the two Cushing movies are accepted. And the younger element, some of whom would accept the remakes, would probably see it as an excuse to disregard the original series and regard the newer stuff as a hard reboot.
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Post by Alan Jeffries on Jan 2, 2016 13:36:59 GMT
Does it really matter if episodes were remade? Batman and Spider-Man have had remake/reboot. Even Dad's Army. Upstairs Downstairs, Quatermass, Star Trek even Thunderbirds. New versions of old series/adaptations of plays are always being churned out. (I'm not saying anything about quality). Why should Who be any different? Especially for stories that don't exist anymore. And I'm sure even the Sensorites could be improved on if re-edited and tightened up somewhat.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Jan 2, 2016 15:23:28 GMT
Does it really matter if episodes were remade? Batman and Spider-Man have had remake/reboot. Even Dad's Army. Upstairs Downstairs, Quatermass, Star Trek even Thunderbirds. New versions of old series/adaptations of plays are always being churned out. (I'm not saying anything about quality). Why should Who be any different? Especially for stories that don't exist anymore. And I'm sure even the Sensorites could be improved on if re-edited and tightened up somewhat. You haven't spent a lot of time on the Who fan forums, have you? To many, canon is very, very important. Remaking old episodes would bring into question the legitimacy of the originals. Which version would we be supposed to believe now existed in the past of the current Doctor? The original, or the remake? Even the makers of the new Star Trek eventually had to appease the fans by saying the new movies were set in a divergent timeline and the original continuity still existed somewhere!
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jan 2, 2016 15:40:15 GMT
Why, if tape was so valuable back then, did a rejected pilot survive? The pilot didn't survive on videotape (which was wiped in May 1971), but on 16mm film onto which it was transferred for viewing by Sydney Newman in the days following the recording. As such, it was subsequently routed back to the BBC Film Library, who tended to keep the vast majority of what was stored there. BBC Enterprises on the other hand, only kept the telerecordings they made for as long as they could be sold and were therefore profitable to keep. Once that period had passed, there was little point in them holding onto bulky material that they could no longer sell and didn't have the storage room for, hence they got rid of them.
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Post by Alan Jeffries on Jan 2, 2016 16:48:00 GMT
Oh I've spent a lot of time on forums Tony and was very long time fandom was a guiding factor in my life and I know exactly how fans are. I am still a lifetime fan of the genre. But in my opinion, if a remake were done, I would take it on it's own merit and be interested in how the adaption would work in today's filming style. I would have to disagree with you about the legitimacy point as they wouldn't replace old episodes, rather bring an old story to the table. A new interpretation would be fine by me. And I know I'm probably in a minority there. The more recent Star Trek movies, to me, were worse off in the long run because they included old Trek in them. They timidly went while holding hands with the past and they should have been forging their own path. Please don't take the following as me trying to flame, but I feel that fans and I mean that in the most general of ways are far too blinkered in their love of shows. Sci-Fi and fantasy is about broadening horizons. But anyway, I'm way off this particular threads topic so it's time for me to cease and desist.
I love the original pilot, in all it's naughty door banging, fluffing ling goodness. (but is it canon?) ;0)
Alan
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Post by Tony Ingram on Jan 2, 2016 19:35:29 GMT
Oh I've spent a lot of time on forums Tony and was very long time fandom was a guiding factor in my life and I know exactly how fans are. I am still a lifetime fan of the genre. But in my opinion, if a remake were done, I would take it on it's own merit and be interested in how the adaption would work in today's filming style. I would have to disagree with you about the legitimacy point as they wouldn't replace old episodes, rather bring an old story to the table. A new interpretation would be fine by me. And I know I'm probably in a minority there. The more recent Star Trek movies, to me, were worse off in the long run because they included old Trek in them. They timidly went while holding hands with the past and they should have been forging their own path. Please don't take the following as me trying to flame, but I feel that fans and I mean that in the most general of ways are far too blinkered in their love of shows. Sci-Fi and fantasy is about broadening horizons. But anyway, I'm way off this particular threads topic so it's time for me to cease and desist. I love the original pilot, in all it's naughty door banging, fluffing ling goodness. (but is it canon?) ;0) Alan Sorry, but I'm afraid I'm one of those blinkered fans. Aside from Doctor Who and other cult TV, my main obsession in life for the last forty years has been superhero comics, and for me, continuity is all. I stopped buying DC Comics after 36 years when they rebooted their entire line in 2011. I have no interest in new versions of old stories. I refused to watch the rebooted Battlestar Galactica for the same reason. And as for Star Trek: if it ain't Shatner, it ain't Kirk.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Jan 2, 2016 19:43:11 GMT
they also altered a few little things like The Doctor's costume tie changed from a ordinary one to a Victorian era one between unseen pilot and 'An Unearthly Child' - while Carole Ann Ford never repeated her fluff of; 'they've gone from 2 to 10' in the second version !
- William Hartnell wasn't the only one 'fluffing lines', here the youngest cast member did in the unaired pilot version !
Hartnell gives strong film performances in 'Yangtse Incident', 'Hell Drivers', and 'Brighton Rock' as well, his acting career, while largely from an era before most Dr.Who fans lifetimes, was probably the biggest of all of the Doctor actors in retrospect as he was a 'name' British film star (he leads the billing in 'Carry on Sergeant' credits) and had starred in the much loved UK comedy show 'The Army Game' all before essentially concluding his acting career with 'Doctor Who'
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