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Post by williammcgregor on Sept 21, 2015 19:25:48 GMT
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Sept 21, 2015 19:45:11 GMT
There is a 1959 episode of Double Your Money that exists in the archives of the Wisconsin Historical Society; part of the Ed Sullivan connection - same archive as the Around the World with Orson Welles Revisiting Vienna came from. I believe this was Hughie Green trying to flog the format to Ed Sullivan.
""WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY ARCHIVES
Madison, WI 53706 United States
Genre/Form: Game., Television.
Material Type: Film
Document Type: Visual material, Archival Material
OCLC Number: 173695695
Notes: This British television quiz show was sent to Ed Sullivan in an attempt to interest him in featuring its host, Hughie Green, on the Ed Sullivan Show.
Cast: Host: Hughie Green.
Description: 1 film reel of 1 (650 ft.) : si., b&w ; 16 mm. arch pos (CA 597) 1 film reel of 1 (650 ft.) : sd. ; 16 mm. mag track (CA 598)
Responsibility: ITV (Firm)
Abstract:
Quiz show in which contestants answer questions on topics of their choice to double their money to L1000.""
""Title: Double your money [motion picture] / ITV (Firm)
Distributor/Publisher: [s.l. : s.n.], 1959.
Quantity: 1 film reel of 1 (650 ft.) : si., b&w ; 16 mm. arch pos (CA 597)
1 film reel of 1 (650 ft.) : sd. ; 16 mm. mag track (CA 598)
Summary: Quiz show in which contestants answer questions on topics of their choice to double their money to L1000.
Notes: This British television quiz show was sent to Ed Sullivan in an attempt to interest him in featuring its host, Hughie Green, on the Ed Sullivan Show.
Forms part of the Ed Sullivan Papers, also described in this catalog.
Country of production: United States.
Cast Credits: Host: Hughie Green.""
You'll not it's 16mm. I expect it's a print, not a telerecording.
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 21, 2015 23:29:30 GMT
And that's where the questions you raised are very valid Paul. What percentage of programmes were copied to film? Numbers of copies of each programme? What does seem to be appearing as a pattern, though, is that RTV/ ABC were creating 16mm film prints of their programmes from when they began in the mid-50's onwards. As mentioned previously, these were commercial TV stations who were creating saleable assets and certainly knew the value of using them for repeats and overseas sales. So before a particular videotape was wiped, I think there would have been a process in place to review whether it's contents should be archived to film first. The other question of course is if a programme was copied to film for archiving (master copy)/ overseas sales - what was it's shelf-life? Were there periodic clearouts? I do think that there is still great potential for further discoveries to be made, from private collectors and from overseas - especially 16mm film prints that were sent to broadcasters in other countries, which were either not returned or were copied before returning. Hi Neil The quote I've bolded above gets to the nub of the issue I think - and is what's really beginning to bug me about this whole story and the Peter Sellers example in particular. A rising star,already famous from The Goons on radio and a similar TV comedy produced by Rediffusion itself earlier in the same year (The "Freds") gets a showcase drama slot playing two different roles....and Rediffusion doesn't record it? That seems highly unlikely to me even before you factor in the technical difficulties of mounting two live plays one after the other when Sellers is playing an old man in the first half - think of the makeup changes that would have to be turned around in little more time than a commercial break allows! So common sense would suggest it was recorded - and at least one half recorded before transmission. But if that were true common sense would also suggest Rediffusion would have had a prize asset on their hands for re-sale or repeat - within months of this broadcast Sellers would appear in cinemas in The Smallest Show On Earth playing a superficially similar character to Snowball, a year after that he would appear in I'm Alright Jack with a similar setting and scenario to the Snowball play. And move on a couple more years he's launched as a major star in the US - the potential for this "saleable asset" would be obvious. So where's the repeat and the overseas sales? Indeed where are any of the shows that were recorded? I don't mean any disrespect to Mr Johnson's efforts at preservation of the Rediffusion archive but if you methodically check through the Kaleidoscope guide searching for their output it still shows virtually everything as being junked up to the mid-Sixties. As with Tales of Mystery, most standalone series or single plays are shown as completely missing with no "representative sample" episodes at all. Have the films he sent to the BFI properly been catalogued I wonder? |
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 22, 2015 7:49:17 GMT
Hi Neil The quote I've bolded above gets to the nub of the issue I think - and is what's really beginning to bug me about this whole story and the Peter Sellers example in particular. A rising star,already famous from The Goons on radio........... Hi Richard I certainly agree with your thoughts on this. Based on the evidence of RTV's practices at the time and their recording of other plays in the series - which have subsequently turned up in the archives at BFI - it seems extremely unlikely that this Seller's double-bill went out live and was then lost forever. I think that recordings would almost certainly have been made. The fact that RTV were recording programmes early on is encouraging inasmuch as it gives them a chance of survival. So that knowledge in itself is important. But the next step in trying to solve the RTV archive mystery is to try and find out what happened to it subsequently. You raise a good point: "I don't mean any disrespect to Mr Johnson's efforts at preservation of the Rediffusion archive but if you methodically check through the Kaleidoscope guide searching for their output it still shows virtually everything as being junked up to the mid-Sixties. As with Tales of Mystery, most standalone series or single plays are shown as completely missing with no "representative sample" episodes at all. Have the films he sent to the BFI properly been catalogued I wonder?"A key question then is how much of RTV's archive survived until 1968, when Thames TV was formed and how much of it was then salvaged by John Johnson? I know the BFI have RTV plays from the 1950's. So even if there was a clear-out of some of RTV's earlier material, it certainly wasn't a wholesale clear-out. The BFI hold material from the first day that RTV broadcast in 1955 until the very end. We know from Johnson's account that the BFI (in 1972) were keen to obtain programmes/ plays with the big names in them - so Sellers would have definitely been on that list. This is confirmed by Johnson's account" "I contacted the Television Officer at the BFI, who was not keen. ‘We would like your some of your plays with big stars (such as Judi Dench and Peter Sellers) and the Pinters and Potters, but not the quizzes”.So either the Sellers plays had been junked by then and were not available to be offered to the BFI or they had already ended up elsewhere. This 'elsewhere' could be in the hands of RTV staff/ executives, private collectors and/ or overseas - if the plays were sold to other countries for broadcast or to overseas collectors. The BFI not holding a copy of a particular RTV programme is not sufficient evidence - in my opinion - that it does not exist. The BFI was in many ways the 'last resort' when Global Television Services closed in 1971 and John Johnson could no longer divert funds to pay for the warehouse in Chiswick. It is quite possible that some material was held back from being offered to the BFI and ended up in private collections instead. We also shouldn't assume that the material that was offered to the BFI and which was not taken by them did not survive. Chris Perry of Kaleidoscope mentioned this to me which is particularly interesting: 'John Johnson always hinted that 'shedloads of film' was taken away privately rather than be junked but I don't know how true that was.'
You also mention whole series being missing with no 'representative' samples' being held and 'virtually everything as being junked up to the mid-Sixties' so this raises other points that need answering. What were the RTV practices with regard to their archive during the 50's/ 60's - up until the formation of Thames TV in 1968? How was this archive managed? Were there series/ programmes that were no longer deemed of value and junked to create more storage space in the rooftop building at Television House, Kingsway? Or rather than being junked, did these programmes find 'homes' elsewhere? In private collections perhaps? How big was this rooftop building on RTV's Television House? Given that it seems to have been RTV's main archive storage area, what was it's capacity? Did they have other archive space that hasn't been mentioned by John Johnson? We know that there was some archive storage at Wembley Studios. In John Johnson account of salvaging the RTV archive in 1968, he only mentions Television House - so was the Wembley archive overlooked? John Johnson may have salvaged all of the RTV material from Television House in 1968. But it's trying to understand what happened prior to that date which is also important in unravelling this story. I would hope that the BFI have accurately catalogued all the RTV material by now - given that it received them over 40 years ago, but some institutions can be slow! I know someone who may be able to help with giving us more information about the RTV archive held by the BFI, so will see what I can find out. If the BFI don't have representative samples of certain series - such as Tales of Mystery - am I correct in thinking that they were not in the RTV archive salvaged by John Johnson in 1968? This assumption seems logical - although it's not conclusive - but interested to know other people's thoughts. |
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 22, 2015 8:07:32 GMT
There is a 1959 episode of Double Your Money that..... Thanks for that great information Ray - I think overseas archives is an area of potential that needs more research; both institutions and TV network archives. This is highlighted in Johnson's account: "On the handover [Johnson referring here to the archive material deposited with BFI in '72], many prints were however left overseas as the contracts still had a year or more to run, and since the main deposit, Kaleidoscope has rescued some prints, as has the BFI’s Missing Believed Wiped’ campaign"William - thanks for posting the press cutting, these listings magazines are a great source of information. Just a thought prompted by the recent posts - it may be useful to compile a list/ table of RTV's major productions/ series by year (maybe one exists already?) and then to see which ones the BFI have representative samples and/ or which other archives hold copies. May help us to visualise the current status of the surviving RTV archive and see any patterns... |
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Post by brianfretwell on Sept 22, 2015 9:14:35 GMT
I'm pretty sure that in the first years, at least any work on TV film recordings, would have had lowest priority at the BFI. Two reasons for this 1. then they were mainly interested in cinema film (they didn't event want to keep the amateur prize winning films of the year after the 80's and moved them on) 2. 50's and 60's TV recordings would have been on safety stock (all 16mm is due to it originally being only for home use) and they would have been primarily interested in cataloguing and copying films on nitrate base to safety film. Having seen a video at an NFT open day of a nitrate vault fire I don't blame them.
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 22, 2015 9:40:22 GMT
I'm pretty sure that in the first years, at least any work on TV film recordings, would have had lowest priority at the BFI.... Yes, that certainly seems to have been the case. When the BFI was offered the RTV archive in 1972, it took them a bit by surprise. TV programme preservation obviously hadn't been a priority for them. From John Johnson's account. "In fact BFI probably faced a situation they may not have encountered before. Printed books are subject to compulsory deposit: by law all publishers have to deposit one copy of every publication with the national libraries for preservation — and as a researcher, I know how valuable these are. Unfortunately compulsory deposit does not apply to films. Thus, to select a film for preservation, costs the BFI money for a new print (distribution prints are too battered for archiving). Hence the limited budget tended to be spend on classical features, at the expense of B Westerns. Naturally, the BFI applied these criteria to the RTV films.
Once I had made it clear, however, that I would provide all these hundreds of reels of films free, and they would not cost the BFI a penny, we soon reached agreement over my reasonable selection’. Possibly the idea of acquiring a television collection comparable to that of the BBC at the time, also appealed to them, and a full range of material has been preserved."
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 22, 2015 13:00:11 GMT
RTV Archives - Television HouseBit more information on RTV's main archive facilities - which was in the 'rooftop hut' on Television House as described by John Johnson. The photo below shows a rooftop octagonal-shaped building which looks like it could be the 'hut' he was referring to - taken at the time when Associated-Rediffusion were the owners. First impressions are that it was not that big if it was to hold RTV's archive! Click on the images to enlarge. John Johnson's described it in his acount: "I made a tour of my new empire, starting with the hut on the roof of Television House. This used to be called Adastral House, the old head-quarters of the Air Ministry, and in my days in radio, this hut, which was part of the Met Office, became famous whenever we had a heat wave, rare in those days, as many bulletins would lead with the news that the temperature on the Air Ministry roof today reached 90 degrees in the shade’.
The famous hut was now the RTV Film Library....."
The other half of the equation was the paperwork which was stored in the basement of Television House. John Johnson explains: "The production paperwork was very important, as you can't sell programmes unless you also pay the residuals to writers and artists who had made them, and that meant preserving all the paperwork, yards of it, that supports every production. The first question was: what records did we have left? Lots of old files, dating back thirteen years, had been stored in the basement, where a main drain had overflowed and destroyed many early documents. Not a pretty sight! The second problem was that every production department, contracts, copyright, music, publicity, billings, script services, and the production office with the all important P as B, all had their own sets of production files, much of which was duplicated. A team of temps was brought in to weed and amalgamate all these departmental files into one Master Production File for every series and episode, and stored in over twenty filing cabinets, , together with new supporting material, such as catalogues, and the master index of the dates of all 1W programmes, starting with Day One. Today we would just put the whole lot on one hard disc.In June 1968, when the RTV contract came to an end, I moved the Master Files and Library from TVH to a warehouse in Chiswick. I quietly kept all the files and films, irrespective of sales potential...."RTV Archives and the BFIWe know that when John Johnson negotiated with the BFI in 1972, the selected footage/ programmes were sent to the National Film Archive. What's interesting is that he goes on to say that: "Ban’ie McDonald, the Librarian at the ITA, agreed to take all the Master Production Files and the Programme Index. Some duplicate programme papers were passed to Gillian Hartnoll, the BFI Librarian at the time."Chris Perry of Kaleidoscope has confirmed that: "120+ boxes of RTV archive paperwork - saved by John Johnson - was kept at the IBA in Foley Street but is now in the BFI Special Collections..."So although the BFI were selective with regards to the footage/ programmes that they took, it looks as though all the paperwork which was taken from the archives in the basement of Television House was kept/ safe-guarded. Articles on Television House, Kingsway --> www.transdiffusion.org/2004/01/01/intro--> www.tvstudiohistory.co.uk/studio%20history.htm#television house Click on the images to enlarge:   
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Post by Peter Stirling on Sept 22, 2015 22:46:17 GMT
Also interesting perhaps is why so much is missing from the LAST couple of years of RTV's life- all their major networked series from say 66-68 are missing almost completely, the Informer of course but everything else as well- No Hiding Place-Sanctuary--Seven Deadly Sins-Half Hour Story- a Man of Our Times-Sexton Blake etc etc. .. Now I for one could not imagine Thames TV starting its operation with used video tapes can anyone else?
Did the play 'Entertaining Mr Sloane' survive? (transmitted in RTV's penultimate week) If it did then it and 'Funeral Games' were probably taken by Producer Peter Willes with him to Yorkshire TV?
As mentioned before some of the missing Half Hour Stories were at least around until 1971 when they were repeated by LWT . LWT was transmitting only on 625 lines by this time ( 405 Lines for old TVs was obtained from a conversion at the transmitters) so the RTV tapes were video tape telerecorded giving it it's own distinctive look.
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 23, 2015 8:31:00 GMT
John Green has found some exceptionally rare items from the AR/ RTV archive which will be released on 26 October 2015 on a Network DVD Boxset. See his post above - from the ITV at 60 Boxset thread (ME thread link below). No Hiding Place - ep. 'A Bird To Watch The Marbles' Mystery Bag - ep. 'Lockhart Finds A Note' Crane - ep. 'A Cargo of Cornflour' Our Man At St. Marks - ep. 'The Facts Of Life' The question is where did Network locate these ME's, as they are not held at the BFI. And do they have any more in the pipe-line?! ME Thread - ITV at 60 Boxset--> missingepisodes.proboards.com/post/134252/thread |
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 23, 2015 9:32:08 GMT
Also interesting perhaps is why so much is missing from the LAST couple of years of RTV's life- all their major networked series from say 66-68 are missing almost completely, the Informer of course but everything else as well- No Hiding Place-Sanctuary--Seven Deadly Sins-Half Hour Story- a Man of Our Times-Sexton Blake etc etc. .... Yes, I share your frustration on this Peter. The last programmes to be produced by RTV should have had the best chance of survival. I knew RTV programmes aired overseas post-1968 but I didn't know they were also shown on other ITV regions. Perhaps longer term contracts were also in place with some of these regions prior to RTV/ ABC closing to form Thames TV? You mentioned that: "Did the play 'Entertaining Mr Sloane' survive? (transmitted in RTV's penultimate week) If it did then it and 'Funeral Games' were probably taken by Producer Peter Willes with him to Yorkshire TV?"I certainly think that some directors/ producers would have wanted copies for their personal collection - to add to their 'portfolio' of work. So I think this kind of lead is worth following up with further. The strange things is that Global Television Services (GTS) were looking after the surviving RTV archive from mid-1968/ post Thames TV creation onwards - and trying to create revenue from it at the same time with overseas sales. And we know that they were successful as they were able to divert enough funds from their accounts to pay for the storage of the RTV archive in the warehouse at Chiswick. So from mid-1968 up until 1971 at least - GTS were still active selling RTV programmes and sending them overseas. GTS were of course also actively marketing RTV productions to other countries prior to the formation of Thames TV in 1968 - certainly from the early 60's onwards. So programmes such as The Informer and the others you mentioned would certainly have been 'on their radar too'. They were no doubt actively marketing them as well. RTV's productions in those last years would have been prime assets, technology for creating archive copies/ master prints was more developed - and they would also have known about the huge overseas deals that ABC had struck with programmes like The Avengers with US etc. Which only adds to the mystery of what happened to them? |
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Post by christian bews on Sept 23, 2015 23:22:12 GMT
RTV's last programme for ITV was 'mountbatten' shown a year after their closure in 1969. I remembered seeing in the times on January 1st 1969,there was a half-page advert for the programme which was advertised by rediffusion themselves & was transmitted by Thames television ,shown after ABC's 'the avengers' which Thames transmitted too! It was repeated on channel 4 in 1987,released on home video & last seen on the history channel around about 1996. Who holds the rights to this?
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 24, 2015 9:59:20 GMT
It seems as though some of the recent finds of rare RTV episodes - included in the forthcoming ' ITV at 60 Boxset' - came from Australia. See post:missingepisodes.proboards.com/post/134266/threadNo big surprise given the amount of RTV material that was broadcast there. I think this just reemphasises the importance of searching overseas - as well as the UK - for lost material. |
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Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 24, 2015 10:16:05 GMT
RTV's last programme for ITV was 'mountbatten' shown a year after their closure in 1969. I remembered seeing in the times on January 1st 1969,there was a half-page advert for the programme which was advertised by rediffusion themselves & was transmitted by Thames television ,shown after ABC's 'the avengers' which Thames transmitted too! It was repeated on channel 4 in 1987,released on home video & last seen on the history channel around about 1996. Who holds the rights to this? Christian - I don't know for certain, but Archbuild Limited own the rights to most of Rediffusion's archive: "Most titles are the intellectual property of Archbuild Limited, with the exception of some of Rediffusion's musical output such as Ready Steady Go! which is owned by Dave Clark International." --> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated-Rediffusion#Programmes |
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Post by Richard Marple on Sept 24, 2015 12:47:30 GMT
RTV's parent compant was BET, did they sell the rights / archive?
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