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Post by Marie Griffiths on Feb 28, 2015 2:41:03 GMT
I just saw he documentary about Joy Division on BBC 4.There us a clip of them playing Shaowplay in Granada Reports 20 sep 1978.
th quality is very poor loooking like a domestic recording. The production loooks professiona with mixed in vido so I am surprised no quality copy exsts.
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Kev Hunter
Member
The only difference between a rut and a groove is the depth
Posts: 605
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Post by Kev Hunter on Feb 28, 2015 10:30:59 GMT
Yes I was surprised at the poor quality of that too, Marie. That whole performance of "Shadowplay" was included in C4's "The Way They Were" in 1986, and even my copy of it, recorded on a VHS cassette at the time, is better quality! Go figure..
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Post by Ray Langstone (was saintsray) on Feb 28, 2015 11:29:08 GMT
It may be due to several reasons; it's likely to boil down to either poor research in finding the source tape (which is the better reason, in its' way) or the master is missing or damaged. I expect it's the former, and I hope it is.
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Post by Steven Flavell on Feb 28, 2015 12:19:08 GMT
The clip may have been lifted from Youtube. This is something that appears to be quite common now and makes me quite angry. There is a documentary coming up soon about Culture Club, a rough edit has been leaked online by George, and all the archive footage has come from Youtube.
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Post by Rich Cornock on Feb 28, 2015 12:40:40 GMT
I expect its down to cost. Its so much cheaper and easier to download a bunch of clips off of YouTube than get them all from different archives. I guess for the most part viewers won't complain
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Post by Marie Griffiths on Feb 28, 2015 16:05:26 GMT
So if documentaries are made by downloading clips from YouTube and the BBC now gets the viewers presenting (See the One Show) then why do we need broadcasters at all?
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Post by Tony Walshaw on Mar 1, 2015 12:15:01 GMT
Yes, good point Marie. I also noticed the 'Shadowplay' clip - I assumed it was a domestic recording because the original did not survive.
When this is the case, it is entirely reasonable to show a surviving copy in poorer quality, and the viewer will understand the situation.
I agree with Rich that cost may have been the reason.
If it is due to laziness alone, and not cost, then this is poor.
Sometimes I wonder if the programme makers think that "the viewer is used to seeing poor quality old footage", because that is often the only footage that exists pre-1990s (e.g. tele-recordings, grainy 16mm) . And for this reason they merely use it, even when better footage does exist. |
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Post by philcollins on Mar 1, 2015 14:18:40 GMT
It looks like it was taken from the Joy Division Substance video promo that was prepared by Factory when Substance was released in 1988, the giveaway being that the clip in the documentary (it's not a BBC documentary by the way - it was made in 2007 and it's already been out on DVD for ages) included Tony Wilson's full introduction which didn't appear when Shadowplay was included in 'The Way They Were' in 1986 and the Punk documentary and video in the early 90s. Shadowplay has appeared on a number of other programmes since then and I notice that there's a programme starting on ITV this week called 'Pop Gold' when it conceivably might be included again (this week's show includes the Sex Pistols and the Clash which will presumably be footage from 'So It Goes').
Why would they use a comparatively poor quality off air recording rather than what's in the Granada archive and has since been rebroadcast many times? Maybe just because it's a very 'Factory' thing to do... |
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Post by Jeff Leach on Mar 1, 2015 16:57:44 GMT
The clip may have been lifted from Youtube. This is something that appears to be quite common now and makes me quite angry. There is a documentary coming up soon about Culture Club, a rough edit has been leaked online by George, and all the archive footage has come from Youtube. The same thing happened a few months ago on ITV's "The nations Favourite Queen song" It had exactly the same issues, why go to the trouble and expense of filming new interviews for the programme and just grabbing footage from on-line sites to go with it - it stands out like a sore thumb. Surely if you are paying the rights holder for the clips, It should be easy to send decent quality copies via Dropbox or similar. My post here: missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/10433/nations-favourite-queen-song-courtesy |
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Post by Gary Critcher on Mar 2, 2015 8:42:17 GMT
I think it's mixture of both......they will have a tight budget and pure laziness. I always thought, though, that the quality off of youtube would be way too bad to be used in a TV programme. Saying that, even if you source something from youtube, you'd still have to pay the rights for it. Which, to me, would mean you may as well get the best quality pictures and sound you could. Thank goodness that the documentaries I have been involved with have never gone down that route.
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Post by philcollins on Mar 2, 2015 18:19:12 GMT
It wasn't a TV programme - it was released in the cinema and has been available on dvd since 2008.
Although I don't definitively know the reason why a lower quality clip of Shadowplay was used (maybe Tony Wilson's intro doesn't survive in complete form anywhere other than on the Factory Substance promo), it clearly wasn't laziness or poor research as the clip of Wilderness from Plan K that is in the film has never appeared anywhere else, neither has Barney's hypnosis tape of Ian and I think it was also the one and only time that Annik Honore spoke about Ian. |
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Post by johncollins on Mar 3, 2015 12:14:16 GMT
I was wondering the other day why 'Shadowplay' on Granada Reports is only ever seen in poor quality. I'm sure it must still exist in broadcast quality (is that the right term?). After all, the very rare clip of 'She's Lost Control' from Granada's 'What's On' exists in broadcast quality. Why there can't be a DVD of Substance along with Here Are The Young Men (and Plan K) I don't know.
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Post by philcollins on Mar 3, 2015 17:55:14 GMT
There won't be a dvd of the Joy Division footage any time soon as two thirds of the surviving members only deal with the other third via lawyers. The footage from the Effenaar, Eindhoven from Here Are The Young Men is probably unlikely to ever be released again as the owner of said footage is apparently somewhat 'difficult' these days, or so I've heard. The Plan K footage is also best described as harsh on the ears - aurally worse than the Apollo Manchester footage although slightly better visually.
There's also the fact that music dvds are something of a niche market these days and would a Joy Division dvd wouldn't shift enough copies to justify the expense of making it? From an artistic point of view the answer might be yes but the days of the band doing things purely for their artistic merits are in the past...and who can blame them given the money that Factory spent on their behalf during the 1980s? |
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Post by Tim Brown on Mar 6, 2015 6:37:33 GMT
It was available on a 1992 "Punk" Warners VHS release "Shadowplay (released on Substance - also on "Punk" compilation WEA/Warner 4 509 91011-3, released 1992)" www.joydiv.org/jdtv.htm |
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Post by jbuoys on Mar 13, 2015 19:05:21 GMT
I seem to remember Joy Division recorded at The Cottage in Macclesfield. I used to know the owner of the studio and I believe his wife, Deborah used to be married to Ian Curtis, the band's lead singer before he committed suicide.
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