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Post by Alan Burns on Jul 21, 2014 18:19:45 GMT
His remarks maybe vague but I think that it's safe to say that more episodes will be returning. I think it's safe to say that he wants us to believe more episodes will be returning. That's as far as I'm prepared to go at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:03:33 GMT
Hi first post. One aspect no one has mentioned yet, is how any new information revealed by Phil Morris (yesterday or in the future), may contradict or invalidate information passed on by the established experts. For example: > Paul Vanezis. Q15 from the Facebook Q&A contradicts what Paul Vanezis has stated in the past about Sierra Leone (which was already suspect). > Jon Preddle. I believe Morris has intimated, either on Facebook & Twitter that Jon doesn't know as much as Morris does. Does this mean BroaDWcast.org is out-of date or wrong in places? > Likewise, Richard Molesworth. Wiped! was criticised by Jon Preddle for inaccuracies and there is the obvious uncertainty now about when the junkings stopped (Morris claims the junkings carried on until 1981). Can Wiped! still be used as a reference source? Does the whole established history of missing episodes need to be re-examined? Hi Ford. Yes you make a good point. Phil set out on his search with the information provided to him. It is no doubt thanks to Jon Preddle who we on this forum have our tremendous thanks for his part in Phil's search was able to provide Phil with the information that he needed. It is possible having visited Sierra Leone that Phil was able to learn this new infomation first hand. However at this stage everything is just pure speculation and Paul, Jon and Richard Molesworth's version of events stand. It's not official until it is official and the status quo stands until/if Phil has more episodes of Doctor Who which sounds unlikely but we hope for it to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:24:49 GMT
Hi first post. One aspect no one has mentioned yet, is how any new information revealed by Phil Morris (yesterday or in the future), may contradict or invalidate information passed on by the established experts. For example: > Paul Vanezis. Q15 from the Facebook Q&A contradicts what Paul Vanezis has stated in the past about Sierra Leone (which was already suspect). > Jon Preddle. I believe Morris has intimated, either on Facebook & Twitter that Jon doesn't know as much as Morris does. Does this mean BroaDWcast.org is out-of date or wrong in places? > Likewise, Richard Molesworth. Wiped! was criticised by Jon Preddle for inaccuracies and there is the obvious uncertainty now about when the junkings stopped (Morris claims the junkings carried on until 1981). Can Wiped! still be used as a reference source? Does the whole established history of missing episodes need to be re-examined? Hi Ford. Yes you make a good point. Phil set out on his search with the information provided to him. It is no doubt thanks to Jon Preddle who we on this forum have our tremendous thanks for his part in Phil's search was able to provide Phil with the information that he needed. It is possible having visited Sierra Leone that Phil was able to learn this new infomation first hand. However at this stage everything is just pure speculation and Paul, Jon and Richard Molesworth's version of events stand. It's not official until it is official and the status quo stands until/if Phil has more episodes of Doctor Who which sounds unlikely but we hope for it to happen. But if we are now discovering information is wrong then how can we trust anything else that has been put forward as 'fact'? Paul Vanezis told us all the Sierra Leone episodes were destroyed in 1999. Yet now we learn they went back to London in 1974. That's 30 years of delay. How badly could the film have degraded in that time? Phil's been searching for ten years and has stated he was on the wrong track for a long time. Can we thank Jon Preddle for that? It was only by chance Richard Bignell came across the TIE Ltd in 2008. If the initial research had been more vigourous then this may have been located sooner. There's even a rumour that TIE Ltd was mentioned by Sue Malden in Doctor Who Magazine in the 1980s. On the back of 'Wiped!' it states the following: If Phil Morris's assertion that junkings at Villers House continued until 1981 and not 1978, is true, can we expect 'Wiped!' to be filed in the fiction section instead of factual. If it was 1981 how much more material was destroyed? A serious review of the whole research done on missing episodes would be a good idea in my humble opinion
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 19:32:05 GMT
And I bet it's a good idea that no one took up Paul Vanezis's suggestion to go and search in the rubble of the destroyed Sierra Leone film archive to look for missing episodes as they certainly would have been wasting their time.
Not because the film prints and the film archive were destroyed. Which they weren't.
No because 25 years earlier, they had been sent to a different continent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:14:22 GMT
Hi Ford. Yes you make a good point. Phil set out on his search with the information provided to him. It is no doubt thanks to Jon Preddle who we on this forum have our tremendous thanks for his part in Phil's search was able to provide Phil with the information that he needed. It is possible having visited Sierra Leone that Phil was able to learn this new infomation first hand. However at this stage everything is just pure speculation and Paul, Jon and Richard Molesworth's version of events stand. It's not official until it is official and the status quo stands until/if Phil has more episodes of Doctor Who which sounds unlikely but we hope for it to happen. But if we are now discovering information is wrong then how can we trust anything else that has been put forward as 'fact'? Paul Vanezis told us all the Sierra Leone episodes were destroyed in 1999. Yet now we learn they went back to London in 1974. That's 30 years of delay. How badly could the film have degraded in that time? Phil's been searching for ten years and has stated he was on the wrong track for a long time. Can we thank Jon Preddle for that? It was only by chance Richard Bignell came across the TIE Ltd in 2008. If the initial research had been more vigourous then this may have been located sooner. There's even a rumour that TIE Ltd was mentioned by Sue Malden in Doctor Who Magazine in the 1980s. On the back of 'Wiped!' it states the following: If Phil Morris's assertion that junkings at Villers House continued until 1981 and not 1978, is true, can we expect 'Wiped!' to be filed in the fiction section instead of factual. If it was 1981 how much more material was destroyed? A serious review of the whole research done on missing episodes would be a good idea in my humble opinion I pretty much think that unless it comes directly from Paul or officially from Phil then these views will have to be treated as rumours. Phil stated that the audition prints were sent back to London in 1974. From what I understand the other prints were destroyed in 1999. Of course the other points you made are just rumours. Of course the other points you make are of high interest but we should wait for an offical announcment from Phil before considering re writing history. For now we must follow the established course of events as told from Wiped! and other reputable sources. We must follow the facts. Not give in to the rumours. Now excuse me but I need to have a look at Planet Mondas. I think my Bathchair must be getting cold. www.planetmondas.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2903&start=62060
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Simon Collis
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Post by Simon Collis on Jul 21, 2014 20:20:51 GMT
If only there'd been a delay so that he was answering question 2 instead of 3,etc. (Yes,it's a 'Two Ronnies' sketch). There was. In fact the 2 Ronnies sketch was actually mentioned after Q2 was asked before he finished answering Q1!
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Post by John Green on Jul 21, 2014 20:24:16 GMT
If only there'd been a delay so that he was answering question 2 instead of 3,etc. (Yes,it's a 'Two Ronnies' sketch). There was. In fact the 2 Ronnies sketch was actually mentioned after Q2 was asked before he finished answering Q1! [/quot www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0C59pI_ypQ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:25:29 GMT
But if we are now discovering information is wrong then how can we trust anything else that has been put forward as 'fact'? Paul Vanezis told us all the Sierra Leone episodes were destroyed in 1999. Yet now we learn they went back to London in 1974. That's 30 years of delay. How badly could the film have degraded in that time? Phil's been searching for ten years and has stated he was on the wrong track for a long time. Can we thank Jon Preddle for that? It was only by chance Richard Bignell came across the TIE Ltd in 2008. If the initial research had been more vigourous then this may have been located sooner. There's even a rumour that TIE Ltd was mentioned by Sue Malden in Doctor Who Magazine in the 1980s. On the back of 'Wiped!' it states the following: If Phil Morris's assertion that junkings at Villers House continued until 1981 and not 1978, is true, can we expect 'Wiped!' to be filed in the fiction section instead of factual. If it was 1981 how much more material was destroyed? A serious review of the whole research done on missing episodes would be a good idea in my humble opinion I pretty much think that unless it comes directly from Paul or officially from Phil then these views will have to be treated as rumours. Phil stated that the audition prints were sent back to London in 1974. From what I understand the other prints were destroyed in 1999. Of course the other points you made are just rumours. Of course the other points you make are of high interest but we should wait for an offical announcment from Phil before considering re writing history. For now we must follow the established course of events as told from Wiped! and other reputable sources. We must follow the facts. Not give in to the rumours. Now excuse me but I need to have a look at Planet Mondas. I think my Bathchair must be getting cold. www.planetmondas.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2903&start=62060I think you overestimate the importance of Mr Vanezis. He has consistently obfuscated throughout this entire saga. Been a bit 'left-handed' you might say. And Phil Morris didn't state "audition prints". He stated "all Doctor Who prints were sent back to london in 1974". There was nothing there in 1999. Reputable sources should be able to stand up to scrutiny without any problems. You dismiss all the other points as rumour and say follow the facts. Facts provided by "hobbyists", not experts. And I am perfectly aware that you know what's going on on Mondas. That doesn't negate the argument.
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Simon Collis
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Post by Simon Collis on Jul 21, 2014 20:28:38 GMT
Paul Vanezis told us all the Sierra Leone episodes were destroyed in 1999. Yet now we learn they went back to London in 1974. That's 30 years of delay. How badly could the film have degraded in that time? I pretty much think that unless it comes directly from Paul or officially from Phil then these views will have to be treated as rumours. Phil stated that the audition prints were sent back to London in 1974. From what I understand the other prints were destroyed in 1999. Of course the other points you made are just rumours. That wasn't my understanding - I read Q15 as a two part question, with a 2-part answer. In answer to the first part, he stated that he has found evidence of audition prints, etc, but this part of the question didn't directly refer to Sierra Leone. The second part asked about SL, and in answer to the second part, he states that he has (copies or originals of) the paperwork from Sierra Leone to show that their episodes were sent back in 1974. He doesn't comment on 1999, but this wouldn't necessarily be relevant to that part of the answer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:37:21 GMT
I pretty much think that unless it comes directly from Paul or officially from Phil then these views will have to be treated as rumours. Phil stated that the audition prints were sent back to London in 1974. From what I understand the other prints were destroyed in 1999. Of course the other points you made are just rumours. That wasn't my understanding - I read Q15 as a two part question, with a 2-part answer. In answer to the first part, he stated that he has found evidence of audition prints, etc, but this part of the question didn't directly refer to Sierra Leone. The second part asked about SL, and in answer to the second part, he states that he has (copies or originals of) the paperwork from Sierra Leone to show that their episodes were sent back in 1974. He doesn't comment on 1999, but this wouldn't necessarily be relevant to that part of the answer. Yes I believe that was my mistake you were right Simon.
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Simon Collis
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Post by Simon Collis on Jul 21, 2014 20:43:32 GMT
That wasn't my understanding - I read Q15 as a two part question, with a 2-part answer. In answer to the first part, he stated that he has found evidence of audition prints, etc, but this part of the question didn't directly refer to Sierra Leone. The second part asked about SL, and in answer to the second part, he states that he has (copies or originals of) the paperwork from Sierra Leone to show that their episodes were sent back in 1974. He doesn't comment on 1999, but this wouldn't necessarily be relevant to that part of the answer. Yes I believe that was my mistake you were right Simon. You may well be right of course, that was just my interpretation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:51:04 GMT
I pretty much think that unless it comes directly from Paul or officially from Phil then these views will have to be treated as rumours. Phil stated that the audition prints were sent back to London in 1974. From what I understand the other prints were destroyed in 1999. Of course the other points you made are just rumours. Of course the other points you make are of high interest but we should wait for an offical announcment from Phil before considering re writing history. For now we must follow the established course of events as told from Wiped! and other reputable sources. We must follow the facts. Not give in to the rumours. Now excuse me but I need to have a look at Planet Mondas. I think my Bathchair must be getting cold. www.planetmondas.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2903&start=62060I think you overestimate the importance of Mr Vanezis. He has consistently obfuscated throughout this entire saga. Been a bit 'left-handed' you might say. And Phil Morris didn't state "audition prints". He stated "all Doctor Who prints were sent back to london in 1974". There was nothing there in 1999. Reputable sources should be able to stand up to scrutiny without any problems. You dismiss all the other points as rumour and say follow the facts. Facts provided by "hobbyists", not experts. And I am perfectly aware that you know what's going on on Mondas. That doesn't negate the argument. I believe you underestimate the importance of Paul who has had a difficult job of restoring many Doctor Who epiosdes. The fact that he didn't confirm what at the time were rumours hardly makes him a Pantomime villian. I do concide to you however that it was possible that Paul may have been a victim a mistake but it was in good faith. I also concide to you that Wiped! may have been a victim of the mistakes that you have mentioned. It would be interesting to see Phil has indeed shed new light on the missing episodes business. However if it wasn't for the "Hobbyists" I doubt we would see the tally of missing episodes in double figures. Not bad for mire amatures who have dedicated their lives for Doctor Who fans. If it dose turn out you were right however I would offer you my apologies but like Paul Vanezis I will believe it when I see it. You made some good points but right now I need to be going. Cheers.
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Post by Brad Phipps on Jul 21, 2014 21:27:49 GMT
Hi Ford. Yes you make a good point. Phil set out on his search with the information provided to him. It is no doubt thanks to Jon Preddle who we on this forum have our tremendous thanks for his part in Phil's search was able to provide Phil with the information that he needed. It is possible having visited Sierra Leone that Phil was able to learn this new infomation first hand. However at this stage everything is just pure speculation and Paul, Jon and Richard Molesworth's version of events stand. It's not official until it is official and the status quo stands until/if Phil has more episodes of Doctor Who which sounds unlikely but we hope for it to happen. But if we are now discovering information is wrong then how can we trust anything else that has been put forward as 'fact'? Paul Vanezis told us all the Sierra Leone episodes were destroyed in 1999. Yet now we learn they went back to London in 1974. That's 30 years of delay. How badly could the film have degraded in that time? Phil's been searching for ten years and has stated he was on the wrong track for a long time. Can we thank Jon Preddle for that? It was only by chance Richard Bignell came across the TIE Ltd in 2008. If the initial research had been more vigourous then this may have been located sooner. There's even a rumour that TIE Ltd was mentioned by Sue Malden in Doctor Who Magazine in the 1980s. On the back of 'Wiped!' it states the following: If Phil Morris's assertion that junkings at Villers House continued until 1981 and not 1978, is true, can we expect 'Wiped!' to be filed in the fiction section instead of factual. If it was 1981 how much more material was destroyed? A serious review of the whole research done on missing episodes would be a good idea in my humble opinion If you're reviewing ANY historical event you have to be fluid in your assessments. It's like saying overall there are 106 missing episodes, they're not coming back and there's no way they'd be in Africa, and then suddenly you find nine episodes in Nigeria and have to re-evaluate your views. It's like science. You have a hypothesis, and you go out to disprove it. Likewise Morris is saying 'I think there are episodes in Syria' and goes to exhaust all avenues to prove he is wrong. And if he is wrong, everybody wins. You can't be so harsh on people who have compiled books or websites based on known information at the time. If new information comes to light, you adjust accordingly. Parts of Wiped volume 1 was incorrect, so Richard corrected those in volume 2. Jon had sales paths across the world sorted pretty well in BroaDWcast until Web and Enemy were found, and so he's adjust accordingly. Sierra Leone is a tricky one. It's easy to say documentation says the films were sent back in 1974 but if some films were missed then they'd just drop off the radar. The War Machines 2, The Chase 1 and The Faceless Ones 1 were all apparently sent back to the UK in 1975 according to documentation and yet all three later surfaced still in Australia. The Celestial Toymaker 4 was listed as junked and yet that was found years later too.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Jul 21, 2014 21:44:28 GMT
But if we are now discovering information is wrong then how can we trust anything else that has been put forward as 'fact'? Paul Vanezis told us all the Sierra Leone episodes were destroyed in 1999. Yet now we learn they went back to London in 1974. That's 30 years of delay. How badly could the film have degraded in that time? Phil's been searching for ten years and has stated he was on the wrong track for a long time. Can we thank Jon Preddle for that? It was only by chance Richard Bignell came across the TIE Ltd in 2008. If the initial research had been more vigourous then this may have been located sooner. There's even a rumour that TIE Ltd was mentioned by Sue Malden in Doctor Who Magazine in the 1980s. On the back of 'Wiped!' it states the following: If Phil Morris's assertion that junkings at Villers House continued until 1981 and not 1978, is true, can we expect 'Wiped!' to be filed in the fiction section instead of factual. If it was 1981 how much more material was destroyed? A serious review of the whole research done on missing episodes would be a good idea in my humble opinion It would be nice if you didn't try and hide behind a pseudonym. If you want transparency, start at home. Regardless, Phil's information doesn't negate at all material being in Sierra Leone in 1999, although of course during any research you evaluate and re-evaluate incoming information and sources to get as close to the truth as possible. Perhaps I shared the information too early? Maybe I decided to fill an information gap with what I thought to be the truth at the time in the interests of transparency? Regardless, I stand by what I said then, now. Regarding Jos, Jon and Phil worked independently. I wasn't fully aware of Jon's work to pass on to Phil in the early days, but I passed on what information I could based on the best evidence we had at the time. Key to this was my locating the commercial rights top sheets from the clearance files, the infamous clearance history sheets in 2008. These detail all sales, payments, invoice numbers etc... for all foreign sales of DW and I passed these to Philip. As for junkings continuing until 1981, well that is confirmed by two of my sources and I passed contact details to Philip. The reason why it hasn't been mentioned is because the junkings weren't official. Some of it could be explained by people who were unaware of the new directive not to junk material, possibly because they were on leave when it was implemented. Having worked for the BBC for 22 years, I know how this could happen. But one particular person was vindictive enough to make a point of junking material and gloating about it, despite the protestations of his co-workers. He was reprimanded. Yes, he did junk returned Doctor Who although nobody knows if it was material that is currently missing. Another contact I tracked down used to work at Villiers House and was a DW fan. After the directive came in, he would secretly send newly returned or at risk DW anonymously to Sue Malden at Windmill Road. I asked Sue a few years ago if she had ever been sent material anonymously and she confirmed that she had. As for Ian and whether he did in fact find and return 'The Daleks', well, I don't know as I wasn't there. But Ian did tell me that he had a photographic memory, total recall. Recently he claimed that I hadn't in fact discovered the three 'Reign of Terror' films, that he had never heard of me at the time of the discovery by BBC Enterprises and that he found and returned the material. Cyprus BC replied to the BBC Enterprises request several weeks after they responded to mine, but there is no doubt I found them first. The letter I got from Cyprus was printed in the DWAS newsletter at the time and it is dated. I have never claimed to have returned them to the BBC. And besides, I'd never heard of Ian Levine at the time. But Ian did elaborate on one important return, that of 'Evil' 2 and 'Faceless Ones' 3 in 1987. Recently he said that I had given him the films to return on my behalf. This isn't true. The films were owned by Gordon Hendry and still are. They weren't mine to give to Ian. Gordon returned the films to the BBC Archive, I was just oiling the machinery to make sure the films ended up back in the archive. Ian did however borrow the films two weeks before the return to make his own copies, in return for which he provided copies of various sci-fi drama on videotape that we wanted to see. On the day Gordon returned 'The Faceless Ones' #3, I sat with the film examiner who went through the film for the first time at the BBC, something I would do years later with the 9 films Phil returned just a few months ago. Gordon was at Television Centre where John Nathan-Turner had arranged a studio tour. Regards, Paul
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Simon Collis
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Post by Simon Collis on Jul 21, 2014 22:00:14 GMT
Hi Paul, I think the confusion is simply that new evidence has come to light we weren't aware of before (although you may have been) and I think people are a bit confused. Phil simply said all prints from SL were returned to London in 1974; as I recall you stated that the archives were destroyed in 1999 and therefore anything remaining in them. There's nothing to say that some prints weren't returned and were destroyed in 1999, and nothing the other way to say they were all returned in 1974. Either way, it's simply the passage of time, more information - and the fact that the Q&A with Phil was painfully brief (presumably a by-product of the poor internet access wherever Phil is). I don't think anyone takes it badly, we're just excited that there's a little bit more information - and maybe just another possibility of where the prints might have gone. Keep up the good work - we all really do appreciate it, you know!
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