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Post by Peter Elliott on Jul 23, 2008 13:46:33 GMT
I have the recordings that are floating about of the 1964, 1965 and 1966 NME Pollwinners shows and I'm a little mystified.
The 1964 and 1965 shows suffer from some pretty hamfisted editing which makes me wonder if these copies in circulation are what was actually transmitted or not. Cliff and The Shadows' set from 1964 was discussed here a while back since that seems to have vanished.
My query concerns Twinkle and Tom Jones. A Twinkle CD has a clip of her performing "Terry" at the 1965 show. The BBC showed a documentary on Tom Jones in the 1990s which featured various clips from an NME Pollwinners performance but there is no sign of Tom or Twinkles' sets on the shows in circulation.
Any idea why this is? Are there any other performances in existence from these shows that are not in circulation for whatever reason?
I'm asking generally out of curiosity... I'm not a Tom Jones fan and couldn't care less if I see his set or not (and compared to many artistes of the era, he is very well represented in the archives) but I do wonder if there is another song by Twinkle and if we'll ever see a better quality copy of "Terry" since footage of Twinkle seems pretty elusive. There is a clip of her on Beat Club in 1966 performing "Sha La La Lee" but that and this NME clip is all I've ever seen of her as far as vintage footage goes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2008 16:03:12 GMT
I seem to recall Neil Aspinall (yes, really!) posting on here around 2002 and mentioning that there seem to be two versions of the 1965 show in existence: one as transmitted (with a bit of reverb added to the whole thing) and another of the raw footage (presumably the VT version) minus reverb. Would this explain the bad edits? I've often wondered about these myself. It seems the '66 footage suffers from these as well.
Does anyone here know exactly what the transmitted versions consisted of and do these versions, in fact, still exist in full?
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Post by Peter Elliott on Jul 23, 2008 16:51:44 GMT
Thanks Laurence. Very interesting!
The Tom Jones material I recall appeared to be from VT and I also recall mostly filmed from one side of the stage. The one or two cutaways from the other side of the stage noticeably "wobbled" just like the Ringo close ups on the Beatles footage. I guess there was a technical problem or the riser the camera was on was not quite as secure as hoped! Can't say this wobbly camera problem is noticeable on the film recording but the VT clips, its definitely there.
It's interesting that the 1965 and 1966 footage exist on VT.
I too would welcome a listing of what was actually transmitted. The bad edits are so bad at times I would had been surprised to learn that was how they were transmitted. Maybe these were done by whoever transferred the versions we have to preserve some sense of exclusivity?
It would be fascinating to see as complete as possible a version of the 1965 show... certainly an epic one! Just wish and live in hope that part one of the 1966 show would turn up! It's very frustrating watching the surviving footage and seeing Keith Moon's drumkit beside the acts ready to be used but the footage is not there...
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Post by Kev Mulrenan on Aug 6, 2008 15:47:05 GMT
I’ve listed the nme details from the Tony Rees Pop Diaries.
The 64, 65 and 66 ones (part 0ne) are around in trading circles.
Rumour has it the Who director for The Kids Are Alright “borrowed” the 66 part two and never gave it back. So hopefully it exists. Apparantly the Small Faces did a version of Paperback writer.
I think clips of Cliff have been used in docus. A clip of Twinkle appears in Brit Girls from Channel 4. I have heard that a fuller version of the 65 one is out there, with her performing Roll Over Beethoven.
The 65 one in trading circles has one Georgie Fame number.
I believe there is a full audio double cd out there of the 65 one.
The real tragedy is the Beatles last ever concert in the U.K. was not recorded due to a dispute, presumably over money. What a disaster in hindsight!
I wonder did they record the whole of the 68 one, and not just the Stones bit. This must have been been Brian Jones’ last big concert. Of course in appeared in more intimate surroundings when doing the Rock and Roll Circus.
There's some footage out there of the show organisers explaining to the crowd what was going to happen. Don't know if this was 64, 65 or 66.
Anyone else got anything to add to the stew?
Saturday 25th March 1961
The NME Pollwinners Show, The Empire Pool, Wembley, London
Cliff Richard,
Adam Faith,
Connie Francis,
Lonnie Donegan,
The King Brothers,
Emile Ford and the Checkmates,
The Shadows,
The John Barry Seven,
Lyn Cornell,
Ted Heath and His Music,
Bob Miller and the Millermen
Sunday 3rd May 1964
ABC Big Beat ‘64 part one 4:05 - 5:35
The New Musical Express Pollwinners Concert, Empire Pool, Wembley
The Beatles,
Joe Brown & The Bruvvers,
The Dave Clark Five,
Freddie & TheDreamers,
Gerry & The Pacemakers,
Jet Harris & The Innocents,
The Hoillies,
Big Dee Irwin & The Diamonds,
Kathy Kirby,
Billy J Kramer & The Dakotas,
Manfred Mann,
The Merseybeats,
Brian Poole &The Tremeloes,
Cliff Richard,
The Searchers,
The Shadows,
The Rolling Stones,
The Swinging Blue Jeans
Plus Jimmy Savile, Murray the K
Sunday 10th May 1964
ABC Big Beat ‘64 part two 4:10 - 5:35 pm
The Beatles: Twist And Shout, receive their award from Roger Moore
Gerry & The Pacemakers,
Billy J Kramer & The Dakotas,
Joe Brown & The Bruvvers,
Big Dee Irwin & The Diamonds,
Kathy Kirby,
Manfred Mann,
The Merseybeats
Sunday 18th April 1965 Easter Sunday
ABC The New Musical Express Poll Winners’ Concert part one 4:10 - 5:35 pm
The Beatles: live set, collect award from Tony Bennett
The Animals,
The Bachelors,
Cilla Black,
Donovan,
Dusty Springfield & The Echoes,
Freddie & The Dreamers,
Georgie Fame & The Blue Flames,
The Gonks,
Herman’s Hermits,
The Ivy League,
The Kinks,
The Moody Blues,
The Rocking Berries,
The Rolling Stones,
The Searchers,
The Seekers,
Tom Jones & The Squires,
Sounds Incorporated,
Them,
Twinkle,
Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders
Sunday 25th April 1965
ABC The New Musical Express Poll Winners’ Concert part two 4:10 - 5:35 pm
The Animals,
The Bachelors,
Cilla Black,
Division Two,
Donovan,
Georgie Fame & The Blue Flames,
Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders,
Freddie & The Dreamers,
The Gonks,
Herman’s Hermits,
The Ivy League,
Tom Jones & The Squires,
The Kinks,
The Mike Leander Showband,
The Moody Blues,
The Rockin’ Berries,
The Rolling Stones,
The Searchers,
The Seekers,
Sounds Incorporated,
Dusty Springfield & The Echoes,
Them
Twinkle
Sunday 8th May 1966
ABC The New Musical Express Poll Winners’ Concert 3:50 - 5:00 pm
Sunday 15th May 1966
ABC The New Musical Express Poll Winners Concert 3:50 - 5:00 pm not networked
The Beatles collect an award
The Who,
Yardbirds – The Train Kept A Rollin’, You’re A Better Man Than I
Saturday 18th May 1968
Southern Time For Blackburn!
Sandie Shaw,
Scott Walker,
Paul Jones,
Eric Burden and The Animals,
Rolling Stones at the NME Pollwinners
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Post by Peter Elliott on Aug 6, 2008 16:27:20 GMT
Thanks for the interesting info Kevin.
The footage of the organisers announcing what would be happening, explaining that the TV cameras would be switched on and asking for big cheers is at the beginning of 1964 or 1965. You get this and that's followed by the countdown clock and then into the show itself.
Interesting to see that The Dave Clark Five are listed on the 1964 show. That's nowhere to be seen anywhere which is very interesting and unfortunate since there is not a scrap of footage about of them where one can hear what they actually sounded like live... so, their set is missing from the circulating copy alongside that of Cliff... No doubt Dave Clark has the offending footage... there is tons of footage of the DC5 miming, sometimes with live vocals from Mike Smith but absolutely nothing totally "live". What is Dave Clark trying to hide?
The circulating copies of the 1965 show is missing a few items... can't say I recall ever seeing The Gonks! No sign either of Tom Jones, Twinkle, The Bachelors or Division 2. Never heard of The Gonks or Division 2 but Twinkle, Bachelors and Tom Jones were all Decca acts which might hint at something... similar management perhaps? Twinkle did have an affair with one of The Bachelors and I'm not entirely sure when Gordon Mills took over management of Tom Jones.
Furthermore looking at the list of the 1965 running order it bears very little resemblance to the copy that's in circulation. It doesn't feature any title sequence or commercial break banners and is entirely from t/r. The Moody Blues open the first part and that ended with The Rolling Stones. After the Stones there is a noticeable improvement in picture quality - a different source (t/r btw not VT) - opening with either Cilla Black or Donovan who did a rather boring self indulgent rambling set. The show climaxes with The Beatles followed by The Kinks who arrived too late for their scheduled spot so had to follow The Beatles and be fobbed off with a runner up prize instead of winning their category, an incident that rather upset Ray Davies.
Here is a list of the performers in the surviving 1966 show...
Sounds Incorporated
The Fortunes
Herman's Hermits
Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick and Tich
The Yardbirds
Crispian St.Peters
The Alan Price Set
Dusty Springfield
Awards Presentation
Hosts were Pete Murray and Jimmy Savile. All acts perform 2 numbers each, Dusty gets three.
According to Keith Badman and Terry Rawling's Small Faces book "Quite Naturally", The Small Faces performed "Sha La La La Lee" and "Whatcha Gonna Do About It". No mention of "Paperback Writer". They also list all the acts of that years show so the missing part would likely had featured...
The Small Faces
The Spencer Davis Group
The Shadows
Cliff Richard
The Seekers
Roy Orbison
The Overlanders and
The Who
Interestingly, London ITV companies chose not to screen the show.
I have read the "rumour" about Jeff Stein "borrowing" the missing part and unless there is evidence that the show still existed in the mid 70s and was loaned out to him, I'm skeptical about this since one would had thought it would had surfaced by now since all the films Stein collected are housed in an archive featuring all Who footage and being "lost" and "unseen since transmission" footage then I would had thought it would had been a prime candidate for inclusion in the "Amazing Journey" documentary. Having said that, Stein and The Who didn't return the Rock and Roll Circus footage until I'm guessing the early 90s since Bill Wyman pointed out that they still had that footage in his "Stone Alone" autobiography... so maybe this rumour can't be ruled out.
The 1968 show was indeed Brian Jones' last public appearance with the Stones. I just find it odd that they would had gone to the time and trouble of setting up the cameras, sound etc just to record one act and I would guess more of that years show must had been filmed. Also the Stones were NOT billed to appear in that show... they came on as "surprise" guests since they had just released "Jumping Jack Flash".
Maybe the 1968 show was covered by somebody like Pathe News and the Stones footage shot by them and given to Blackburn's show as an exclusive? Does anybody remember seeing the 1968 footage?
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Post by Paul Rumbol on Aug 6, 2008 22:05:57 GMT
I'm assuming nothing at all survives from the 25th March 1961 Pollwinners Show listed by Kevin above?
Re Cliff and Shadows in the 1964 Show. This section of some 7 songs is definately missing.
The only surviving clips are taken from the Pathe News Film covering the event. In it you see the Shadows performing a brief clip of 'Dance On' and Cliff singing 'Whole Lotta Shakin'.
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Post by Billy Turner on Aug 6, 2008 23:07:30 GMT
So does anyone know what happened to the 1967 concert? Was it staged? Was it filmed? Does it exist? Who was on it?
Cheers
bill
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Post by Jeff Lewis on Aug 7, 2008 0:45:25 GMT
From reading Tony Bramwell's book 'Magical Mystery Tours' he gave the impression that Dave Clark was years a head of his time by always negociating seperate deals with record companies for things such as music ownership and studio time. He even paid band members a regular wage rather the group sharing in the profits. This might explain the Dave Clark 5's non-filmed appearence at the 1964 NME Pollwinners Concert. Probably explains his foresight in buying the rights to 'Ready Steady Go'
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Post by Paul Rumbol on Aug 7, 2008 6:18:55 GMT
Just as well they werent filmed. Ive seen their apperance on the Royal Gala Show (ATV) from November 1966 when they attempt to sing 'Gorgia'. Its out-of-key and truly cringeworthy .But oh yes throughout the performance Clarke maintains that toothpaste smile to the bitter end.
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Post by Peter Chadwick on Aug 7, 2008 7:11:54 GMT
From reading Tony Bramwell's book 'Magical Mystery Tours' he gave the impression that Dave Clark was years a head of his time by always negociating seperate deals with record companies for things such as music ownership and studio time. He even paid band members a regular wage rather the group sharing in the profits. This might explain the Dave Clark 5's non-filmed appearence at the 1964 NME Pollwinners Concert. Probably explains his foresight in buying the rights to 'Ready Steady Go' Trouble is, we don't know how many editions of RSG he has. He won't talk to anyone about it and, given that he likes to make a few clips go a long way and doesn't like shows that aren't messed about with, we can only assume that he doesn't have very many. He even had the brass neck to release The Beatles' section of the 'Around The Beatles' special as a 'Ready Steady Go Special Edition' when it was nothing to do with RSG. I'd take anything he did tell us with a very large dose of salt. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2008 9:31:59 GMT
So does anyone know what happened to the 1967 concert? Was it staged? Was it filmed? Does it exist? Who was on it? Cheers bill As far as I know, it wasn't televised. I think ABC ended their coverage in '66 (although I am willing to be proved wrong). Nothing has ever come to light from any shows after that year and unless there were any Pathe newsreels, home movies or the like shot, I doubt there's anything existing of '67, '68 or beyond (no idea when they ended). I certainly don't know of any further TV coverage of any length. I do have artist rundowns for the later years somewhere though and I recall that Love Affair and Lulu were on, amongst others. I'd like to see the Stones appearance though (only the two songs, I think); interesting that Southern screened something from it - doubt that exists though, knowing their track record. |
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Post by Peter Elliott on Aug 7, 2008 10:26:30 GMT
Trouble is, we don't know how many editions of RSG he has. He won't talk to anyone about it and, given that he likes to make a few clips go a long way and doesn't like shows that aren't messed about with, we can only assume that he doesn't have very many. He even had the brass neck to release The Beatles' section of the 'Around The Beatles' special as a 'Ready Steady Go Special Edition' when it was nothing to do with RSG. I'd take anything he did tell us with a very large dose of salt. I take everything Dave Clark says with a salt quarry as opposed to a pinch! He boasted in 1992 that he bought all these reels of film of RSG material and claimed it featured "all the specials" and gave the impression, a nice proportion of complete shows. He explained why he waited so long to finally do something with the material and claimed it was because he wanted to show the shows complete - as transmitted - in the same timeslot RSG was originally broadcast and in 1984, Channel 4 gave him the timeslot he wanted. Though welcome to see this footage, it was very obvious the material was hacked to ribbons and were compilations... look at how The Beatles appearances were hacked up and scattered across all the shows. He released several videotapes of RSG material and Sandie Shaw was not happy to learn she was featured since she nor anybody else had been asked for permission to use the footage. Shaw met up with Clark to trash out an agreement and until Shaw intervened, it transpires that none of the artists were getting paid. This is probably the main reason why we have not seen any DVD releases of RSG material. Dave Clark claims the copyrights to RSG but is unwilling to pay the artistes their due. When he did the second run of Channel 4 RSG repeats in the early 90s I was disgusted to find the 1984 material regurgitated only this time he was splicing in non Beatles material from "Around The Beatles" into badly hacked up compilations with the usual DC5 showcase, again all from USTV. There was no "new" RSG material to be had anywhere, hence why it is believed Clark has a lot less than he claims. To my disappointment, the majority of Clark's RSG footage is mostly from 1964. Next to nothing from 1965 or 1966 by comparison which is unfortunate since the show had the acts performing live for much of 1965 and parts of 1966. There are many cool photos showing The Zombies, The Kinks, The Yardbirds, The Hollies and many other bands on the show, but it appears Clark has none of that footage, nor any footage of the DC5 themselves on the show! This is a man who is forever bending truths. Look at the DC5 compilation album he released in 1993. It boasted "35 million sellers" yet there was 25 tracks on the album. How come? Simple. Clark counted each song featured in the rock and roll medleys as a "million selling" song in it's own right! Quite simply, Clark is one of the most infuriating figures in music history. A Genius in some ways with smart business sense, but he seems to have all manner of issues and ways of working that pleases nobody but (I presume) his bank manager. |
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Post by Kev Mulrenan on Aug 7, 2008 12:10:39 GMT
There's an interesting debate, with some ace piccies, on the 68 one here. www.iorr.org/talk/read.php?2,948743,950561,page=2 I think the companies got annoyed with pop from 66 onwards. The refusal of the Beatles to be filmed was probably the final straw. The companies were gearing themselves up for the 68 shake-up and pop and kids tv got less priority. By December 68 there was no ABC  so don't know where that guy saw the 68 one. Possibly only down south. I can't find any reference in the pop diaries to the 68 one being screened, but I base my research around Midlands listings, with some from London. |
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Post by Kev Mulrenan on Aug 7, 2008 16:11:33 GMT
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Post by Phil Leach on Aug 8, 2008 11:53:53 GMT
Could it have been that the 1964 shows were cut down for repeats? I've found repeat transmissions listed for 8 November 1964 and 27 December 1964. Both of these are in a 3.15 to 4.40 slot which is 1hr 25.
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so don't know where that guy saw the 68 one. Possibly only down south.